What is the relationship between a step input and an integrator?
up vote
2
down vote
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While trying to understand control engineering from first principles I came across the following which I cannot yet explain intuitively or mathematically.
What is the relationship if any, between a step input and an integrator?
Why are they identical to each other?
I kept on seeing $1/s$ being used to both represent a step input and an integrator.
- The Laplace transform of the unit-step function is $1/s$.
- An integrator symbol is also $1/s$.
Step Function:

Integrator Block:

Multiplication by s in Frequency (Laplace) domain is differentiation in time.
Dividing by s in Frequency (Laplace) domain is equivalent to integration in time.
Is a step input equivalent to integrating in the time domain, or is it purely coincidental that they both have a spectrum that falls as frequency increases?
Why the Laplace transform of the integral is 1/s?
$int$ in Time Domain = $ 1/s$ in Freq Domain
AND
$mathscr{L} {1/s} = 1$
control control-system
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
While trying to understand control engineering from first principles I came across the following which I cannot yet explain intuitively or mathematically.
What is the relationship if any, between a step input and an integrator?
Why are they identical to each other?
I kept on seeing $1/s$ being used to both represent a step input and an integrator.
- The Laplace transform of the unit-step function is $1/s$.
- An integrator symbol is also $1/s$.
Step Function:

Integrator Block:

Multiplication by s in Frequency (Laplace) domain is differentiation in time.
Dividing by s in Frequency (Laplace) domain is equivalent to integration in time.
Is a step input equivalent to integrating in the time domain, or is it purely coincidental that they both have a spectrum that falls as frequency increases?
Why the Laplace transform of the integral is 1/s?
$int$ in Time Domain = $ 1/s$ in Freq Domain
AND
$mathscr{L} {1/s} = 1$
control control-system
1
The step response is the integral of the impulse response.
– jonk
5 hours ago
To answer the question you just added to the bottom: yes.
– Felthry
4 hours ago
And the step input signal is the differential of a ramp input signal LOL.
– Andy aka
3 hours ago
Just to cap it off.... The impulse response is $hleft(tright)=mathscr{L}^{-1}{Hleft(sright)}$, which is the derivative of the step response, $h left( t right)= frac{ text{d} }{ text{d} t }y_{ gamma } left( t right)$. So: $y_{ gamma } left(tright)=int h left( t right) : text{d}t$.
– jonk
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
While trying to understand control engineering from first principles I came across the following which I cannot yet explain intuitively or mathematically.
What is the relationship if any, between a step input and an integrator?
Why are they identical to each other?
I kept on seeing $1/s$ being used to both represent a step input and an integrator.
- The Laplace transform of the unit-step function is $1/s$.
- An integrator symbol is also $1/s$.
Step Function:

Integrator Block:

Multiplication by s in Frequency (Laplace) domain is differentiation in time.
Dividing by s in Frequency (Laplace) domain is equivalent to integration in time.
Is a step input equivalent to integrating in the time domain, or is it purely coincidental that they both have a spectrum that falls as frequency increases?
Why the Laplace transform of the integral is 1/s?
$int$ in Time Domain = $ 1/s$ in Freq Domain
AND
$mathscr{L} {1/s} = 1$
control control-system
While trying to understand control engineering from first principles I came across the following which I cannot yet explain intuitively or mathematically.
What is the relationship if any, between a step input and an integrator?
Why are they identical to each other?
I kept on seeing $1/s$ being used to both represent a step input and an integrator.
- The Laplace transform of the unit-step function is $1/s$.
- An integrator symbol is also $1/s$.
Step Function:

Integrator Block:

Multiplication by s in Frequency (Laplace) domain is differentiation in time.
Dividing by s in Frequency (Laplace) domain is equivalent to integration in time.
Is a step input equivalent to integrating in the time domain, or is it purely coincidental that they both have a spectrum that falls as frequency increases?
Why the Laplace transform of the integral is 1/s?
$int$ in Time Domain = $ 1/s$ in Freq Domain
AND
$mathscr{L} {1/s} = 1$
control control-system
control control-system
edited 1 hour ago
asked 6 hours ago
Rrz0
939226
939226
1
The step response is the integral of the impulse response.
– jonk
5 hours ago
To answer the question you just added to the bottom: yes.
– Felthry
4 hours ago
And the step input signal is the differential of a ramp input signal LOL.
– Andy aka
3 hours ago
Just to cap it off.... The impulse response is $hleft(tright)=mathscr{L}^{-1}{Hleft(sright)}$, which is the derivative of the step response, $h left( t right)= frac{ text{d} }{ text{d} t }y_{ gamma } left( t right)$. So: $y_{ gamma } left(tright)=int h left( t right) : text{d}t$.
– jonk
3 hours ago
add a comment |
1
The step response is the integral of the impulse response.
– jonk
5 hours ago
To answer the question you just added to the bottom: yes.
– Felthry
4 hours ago
And the step input signal is the differential of a ramp input signal LOL.
– Andy aka
3 hours ago
Just to cap it off.... The impulse response is $hleft(tright)=mathscr{L}^{-1}{Hleft(sright)}$, which is the derivative of the step response, $h left( t right)= frac{ text{d} }{ text{d} t }y_{ gamma } left( t right)$. So: $y_{ gamma } left(tright)=int h left( t right) : text{d}t$.
– jonk
3 hours ago
1
1
The step response is the integral of the impulse response.
– jonk
5 hours ago
The step response is the integral of the impulse response.
– jonk
5 hours ago
To answer the question you just added to the bottom: yes.
– Felthry
4 hours ago
To answer the question you just added to the bottom: yes.
– Felthry
4 hours ago
And the step input signal is the differential of a ramp input signal LOL.
– Andy aka
3 hours ago
And the step input signal is the differential of a ramp input signal LOL.
– Andy aka
3 hours ago
Just to cap it off.... The impulse response is $hleft(tright)=mathscr{L}^{-1}{Hleft(sright)}$, which is the derivative of the step response, $h left( t right)= frac{ text{d} }{ text{d} t }y_{ gamma } left( t right)$. So: $y_{ gamma } left(tright)=int h left( t right) : text{d}t$.
– jonk
3 hours ago
Just to cap it off.... The impulse response is $hleft(tright)=mathscr{L}^{-1}{Hleft(sright)}$, which is the derivative of the step response, $h left( t right)= frac{ text{d} }{ text{d} t }y_{ gamma } left( t right)$. So: $y_{ gamma } left(tright)=int h left( t right) : text{d}t$.
– jonk
3 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
Consider what happens when an integrator gets a unit impulse as its input. What is the output waveform? What's the Laplace transform of a unit impulse?
When an integrator gets a unit impulse, according to my simulink the output rises from 0 to 1 over a 1 second duration and then remains constant at 1. The Laplace transform of a unit impulse is 1, but I don't intuitively see any connection.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
@Rrz0r. Are you sure that isn't a one sample duration?
– Scott Seidman
5 hours ago
No I am not sure about this, I am using a discrete impulse block on Simulink.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
2
A discrete impulse is different from a really-o truly-o Dirac delta functional, which is an "impulse" in continuous-time signal processing. $delta(t)$ has no width, is zero everywhere except for $t=0$, and $int_{0^-}^{0^+} delta(t) dt = 1$. If you haven't seen it before and it's boggling your mind -- relax, you have company.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
2
If you do the math to answer the question "what is the impulse response of an integrator?" then you will be the width of a Dirac impulse away from understanding the answer to your question.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
What is the relationship if any, between a step input and an
integrator?
Consider this:
- White noise has a spectrum of "x" at all frequencies i.e. it is spectrally flat
- A perfect amplifier with a gain of "x" has a transfer function of "x" at all frequencies.
Does anyone get in a muddle about this? Do they have a relationship?
So, a unit step has a spectrum that falls as frequency increases and an integrator also has a transfer function that happens to do the same. Should this be a big deal?
4
While it's true that there doesn't have to be a relationship between two things, it can often be enlightening to consider why two things look similar. I don't disagree with your answer, but I think it might be too dismissive; this is, after all, the type of question that leads to great insight in mathematics. Honestly, after reading your answer, now I find myself thinking about whether there is some mathematical relationship between a perfect amplifier and white noise.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
@Felthry I insist you make this an answer!!
– Andy aka
6 hours ago
I would, but it doesn't answer the question! And I'm not currently able to write it up into a form that does so.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
2
Thanks for the answer. It feels as though I am still missing something fundamental, which I can't yet explain. It could be because I don't fully understand your last sentence. @Felthry I think that would actually be very helpful.
– Rrz0
6 hours ago
@Andyaka if there really is no relationship then is the thought process presented above incorrect?Am I going off on a tangent?
– Rrz0
4 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
Consider what happens when an integrator gets a unit impulse as its input. What is the output waveform? What's the Laplace transform of a unit impulse?
When an integrator gets a unit impulse, according to my simulink the output rises from 0 to 1 over a 1 second duration and then remains constant at 1. The Laplace transform of a unit impulse is 1, but I don't intuitively see any connection.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
@Rrz0r. Are you sure that isn't a one sample duration?
– Scott Seidman
5 hours ago
No I am not sure about this, I am using a discrete impulse block on Simulink.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
2
A discrete impulse is different from a really-o truly-o Dirac delta functional, which is an "impulse" in continuous-time signal processing. $delta(t)$ has no width, is zero everywhere except for $t=0$, and $int_{0^-}^{0^+} delta(t) dt = 1$. If you haven't seen it before and it's boggling your mind -- relax, you have company.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
2
If you do the math to answer the question "what is the impulse response of an integrator?" then you will be the width of a Dirac impulse away from understanding the answer to your question.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
Consider what happens when an integrator gets a unit impulse as its input. What is the output waveform? What's the Laplace transform of a unit impulse?
When an integrator gets a unit impulse, according to my simulink the output rises from 0 to 1 over a 1 second duration and then remains constant at 1. The Laplace transform of a unit impulse is 1, but I don't intuitively see any connection.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
@Rrz0r. Are you sure that isn't a one sample duration?
– Scott Seidman
5 hours ago
No I am not sure about this, I am using a discrete impulse block on Simulink.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
2
A discrete impulse is different from a really-o truly-o Dirac delta functional, which is an "impulse" in continuous-time signal processing. $delta(t)$ has no width, is zero everywhere except for $t=0$, and $int_{0^-}^{0^+} delta(t) dt = 1$. If you haven't seen it before and it's boggling your mind -- relax, you have company.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
2
If you do the math to answer the question "what is the impulse response of an integrator?" then you will be the width of a Dirac impulse away from understanding the answer to your question.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Consider what happens when an integrator gets a unit impulse as its input. What is the output waveform? What's the Laplace transform of a unit impulse?
Consider what happens when an integrator gets a unit impulse as its input. What is the output waveform? What's the Laplace transform of a unit impulse?
answered 6 hours ago
Neil_UK
72.3k274159
72.3k274159
When an integrator gets a unit impulse, according to my simulink the output rises from 0 to 1 over a 1 second duration and then remains constant at 1. The Laplace transform of a unit impulse is 1, but I don't intuitively see any connection.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
@Rrz0r. Are you sure that isn't a one sample duration?
– Scott Seidman
5 hours ago
No I am not sure about this, I am using a discrete impulse block on Simulink.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
2
A discrete impulse is different from a really-o truly-o Dirac delta functional, which is an "impulse" in continuous-time signal processing. $delta(t)$ has no width, is zero everywhere except for $t=0$, and $int_{0^-}^{0^+} delta(t) dt = 1$. If you haven't seen it before and it's boggling your mind -- relax, you have company.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
2
If you do the math to answer the question "what is the impulse response of an integrator?" then you will be the width of a Dirac impulse away from understanding the answer to your question.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
When an integrator gets a unit impulse, according to my simulink the output rises from 0 to 1 over a 1 second duration and then remains constant at 1. The Laplace transform of a unit impulse is 1, but I don't intuitively see any connection.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
@Rrz0r. Are you sure that isn't a one sample duration?
– Scott Seidman
5 hours ago
No I am not sure about this, I am using a discrete impulse block on Simulink.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
2
A discrete impulse is different from a really-o truly-o Dirac delta functional, which is an "impulse" in continuous-time signal processing. $delta(t)$ has no width, is zero everywhere except for $t=0$, and $int_{0^-}^{0^+} delta(t) dt = 1$. If you haven't seen it before and it's boggling your mind -- relax, you have company.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
2
If you do the math to answer the question "what is the impulse response of an integrator?" then you will be the width of a Dirac impulse away from understanding the answer to your question.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
When an integrator gets a unit impulse, according to my simulink the output rises from 0 to 1 over a 1 second duration and then remains constant at 1. The Laplace transform of a unit impulse is 1, but I don't intuitively see any connection.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
When an integrator gets a unit impulse, according to my simulink the output rises from 0 to 1 over a 1 second duration and then remains constant at 1. The Laplace transform of a unit impulse is 1, but I don't intuitively see any connection.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
@Rrz0r. Are you sure that isn't a one sample duration?
– Scott Seidman
5 hours ago
@Rrz0r. Are you sure that isn't a one sample duration?
– Scott Seidman
5 hours ago
No I am not sure about this, I am using a discrete impulse block on Simulink.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
No I am not sure about this, I am using a discrete impulse block on Simulink.
– Rrz0
5 hours ago
2
2
A discrete impulse is different from a really-o truly-o Dirac delta functional, which is an "impulse" in continuous-time signal processing. $delta(t)$ has no width, is zero everywhere except for $t=0$, and $int_{0^-}^{0^+} delta(t) dt = 1$. If you haven't seen it before and it's boggling your mind -- relax, you have company.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
A discrete impulse is different from a really-o truly-o Dirac delta functional, which is an "impulse" in continuous-time signal processing. $delta(t)$ has no width, is zero everywhere except for $t=0$, and $int_{0^-}^{0^+} delta(t) dt = 1$. If you haven't seen it before and it's boggling your mind -- relax, you have company.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
2
2
If you do the math to answer the question "what is the impulse response of an integrator?" then you will be the width of a Dirac impulse away from understanding the answer to your question.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
If you do the math to answer the question "what is the impulse response of an integrator?" then you will be the width of a Dirac impulse away from understanding the answer to your question.
– TimWescott
4 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
What is the relationship if any, between a step input and an
integrator?
Consider this:
- White noise has a spectrum of "x" at all frequencies i.e. it is spectrally flat
- A perfect amplifier with a gain of "x" has a transfer function of "x" at all frequencies.
Does anyone get in a muddle about this? Do they have a relationship?
So, a unit step has a spectrum that falls as frequency increases and an integrator also has a transfer function that happens to do the same. Should this be a big deal?
4
While it's true that there doesn't have to be a relationship between two things, it can often be enlightening to consider why two things look similar. I don't disagree with your answer, but I think it might be too dismissive; this is, after all, the type of question that leads to great insight in mathematics. Honestly, after reading your answer, now I find myself thinking about whether there is some mathematical relationship between a perfect amplifier and white noise.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
@Felthry I insist you make this an answer!!
– Andy aka
6 hours ago
I would, but it doesn't answer the question! And I'm not currently able to write it up into a form that does so.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
2
Thanks for the answer. It feels as though I am still missing something fundamental, which I can't yet explain. It could be because I don't fully understand your last sentence. @Felthry I think that would actually be very helpful.
– Rrz0
6 hours ago
@Andyaka if there really is no relationship then is the thought process presented above incorrect?Am I going off on a tangent?
– Rrz0
4 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
2
down vote
What is the relationship if any, between a step input and an
integrator?
Consider this:
- White noise has a spectrum of "x" at all frequencies i.e. it is spectrally flat
- A perfect amplifier with a gain of "x" has a transfer function of "x" at all frequencies.
Does anyone get in a muddle about this? Do they have a relationship?
So, a unit step has a spectrum that falls as frequency increases and an integrator also has a transfer function that happens to do the same. Should this be a big deal?
4
While it's true that there doesn't have to be a relationship between two things, it can often be enlightening to consider why two things look similar. I don't disagree with your answer, but I think it might be too dismissive; this is, after all, the type of question that leads to great insight in mathematics. Honestly, after reading your answer, now I find myself thinking about whether there is some mathematical relationship between a perfect amplifier and white noise.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
@Felthry I insist you make this an answer!!
– Andy aka
6 hours ago
I would, but it doesn't answer the question! And I'm not currently able to write it up into a form that does so.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
2
Thanks for the answer. It feels as though I am still missing something fundamental, which I can't yet explain. It could be because I don't fully understand your last sentence. @Felthry I think that would actually be very helpful.
– Rrz0
6 hours ago
@Andyaka if there really is no relationship then is the thought process presented above incorrect?Am I going off on a tangent?
– Rrz0
4 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
What is the relationship if any, between a step input and an
integrator?
Consider this:
- White noise has a spectrum of "x" at all frequencies i.e. it is spectrally flat
- A perfect amplifier with a gain of "x" has a transfer function of "x" at all frequencies.
Does anyone get in a muddle about this? Do they have a relationship?
So, a unit step has a spectrum that falls as frequency increases and an integrator also has a transfer function that happens to do the same. Should this be a big deal?
What is the relationship if any, between a step input and an
integrator?
Consider this:
- White noise has a spectrum of "x" at all frequencies i.e. it is spectrally flat
- A perfect amplifier with a gain of "x" has a transfer function of "x" at all frequencies.
Does anyone get in a muddle about this? Do they have a relationship?
So, a unit step has a spectrum that falls as frequency increases and an integrator also has a transfer function that happens to do the same. Should this be a big deal?
answered 6 hours ago
Andy aka
235k10173400
235k10173400
4
While it's true that there doesn't have to be a relationship between two things, it can often be enlightening to consider why two things look similar. I don't disagree with your answer, but I think it might be too dismissive; this is, after all, the type of question that leads to great insight in mathematics. Honestly, after reading your answer, now I find myself thinking about whether there is some mathematical relationship between a perfect amplifier and white noise.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
@Felthry I insist you make this an answer!!
– Andy aka
6 hours ago
I would, but it doesn't answer the question! And I'm not currently able to write it up into a form that does so.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
2
Thanks for the answer. It feels as though I am still missing something fundamental, which I can't yet explain. It could be because I don't fully understand your last sentence. @Felthry I think that would actually be very helpful.
– Rrz0
6 hours ago
@Andyaka if there really is no relationship then is the thought process presented above incorrect?Am I going off on a tangent?
– Rrz0
4 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
4
While it's true that there doesn't have to be a relationship between two things, it can often be enlightening to consider why two things look similar. I don't disagree with your answer, but I think it might be too dismissive; this is, after all, the type of question that leads to great insight in mathematics. Honestly, after reading your answer, now I find myself thinking about whether there is some mathematical relationship between a perfect amplifier and white noise.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
@Felthry I insist you make this an answer!!
– Andy aka
6 hours ago
I would, but it doesn't answer the question! And I'm not currently able to write it up into a form that does so.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
2
Thanks for the answer. It feels as though I am still missing something fundamental, which I can't yet explain. It could be because I don't fully understand your last sentence. @Felthry I think that would actually be very helpful.
– Rrz0
6 hours ago
@Andyaka if there really is no relationship then is the thought process presented above incorrect?Am I going off on a tangent?
– Rrz0
4 hours ago
4
4
While it's true that there doesn't have to be a relationship between two things, it can often be enlightening to consider why two things look similar. I don't disagree with your answer, but I think it might be too dismissive; this is, after all, the type of question that leads to great insight in mathematics. Honestly, after reading your answer, now I find myself thinking about whether there is some mathematical relationship between a perfect amplifier and white noise.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
While it's true that there doesn't have to be a relationship between two things, it can often be enlightening to consider why two things look similar. I don't disagree with your answer, but I think it might be too dismissive; this is, after all, the type of question that leads to great insight in mathematics. Honestly, after reading your answer, now I find myself thinking about whether there is some mathematical relationship between a perfect amplifier and white noise.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
@Felthry I insist you make this an answer!!
– Andy aka
6 hours ago
@Felthry I insist you make this an answer!!
– Andy aka
6 hours ago
I would, but it doesn't answer the question! And I'm not currently able to write it up into a form that does so.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
I would, but it doesn't answer the question! And I'm not currently able to write it up into a form that does so.
– Felthry
6 hours ago
2
2
Thanks for the answer. It feels as though I am still missing something fundamental, which I can't yet explain. It could be because I don't fully understand your last sentence. @Felthry I think that would actually be very helpful.
– Rrz0
6 hours ago
Thanks for the answer. It feels as though I am still missing something fundamental, which I can't yet explain. It could be because I don't fully understand your last sentence. @Felthry I think that would actually be very helpful.
– Rrz0
6 hours ago
@Andyaka if there really is no relationship then is the thought process presented above incorrect?Am I going off on a tangent?
– Rrz0
4 hours ago
@Andyaka if there really is no relationship then is the thought process presented above incorrect?Am I going off on a tangent?
– Rrz0
4 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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1
The step response is the integral of the impulse response.
– jonk
5 hours ago
To answer the question you just added to the bottom: yes.
– Felthry
4 hours ago
And the step input signal is the differential of a ramp input signal LOL.
– Andy aka
3 hours ago
Just to cap it off.... The impulse response is $hleft(tright)=mathscr{L}^{-1}{Hleft(sright)}$, which is the derivative of the step response, $h left( t right)= frac{ text{d} }{ text{d} t }y_{ gamma } left( t right)$. So: $y_{ gamma } left(tright)=int h left( t right) : text{d}t$.
– jonk
3 hours ago