A Short Dice Puzzle












19












$begingroup$


There are $2$ fair dice:




  • An $11$-sided die, valued from $-5$ to $5$,

  • A $41$-sided die, valued from $-20$ to $20$.


You pick one, and I'll take the other one. We roll the dice, and whoever rolls the larger number wins (if tied, we roll again.)



Which die will you choose to maximize your winning probability?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    19












    $begingroup$


    There are $2$ fair dice:




    • An $11$-sided die, valued from $-5$ to $5$,

    • A $41$-sided die, valued from $-20$ to $20$.


    You pick one, and I'll take the other one. We roll the dice, and whoever rolls the larger number wins (if tied, we roll again.)



    Which die will you choose to maximize your winning probability?










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      19












      19








      19


      1



      $begingroup$


      There are $2$ fair dice:




      • An $11$-sided die, valued from $-5$ to $5$,

      • A $41$-sided die, valued from $-20$ to $20$.


      You pick one, and I'll take the other one. We roll the dice, and whoever rolls the larger number wins (if tied, we roll again.)



      Which die will you choose to maximize your winning probability?










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      There are $2$ fair dice:




      • An $11$-sided die, valued from $-5$ to $5$,

      • A $41$-sided die, valued from $-20$ to $20$.


      You pick one, and I'll take the other one. We roll the dice, and whoever rolls the larger number wins (if tied, we roll again.)



      Which die will you choose to maximize your winning probability?







      probability dice






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Dec 17 '18 at 18:16









      JonMark Perry

      20.2k64098




      20.2k64098










      asked Dec 17 '18 at 16:37









      athinathin

      8,33022676




      8,33022676






















          8 Answers
          8






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          23












          $begingroup$

          The answer is




          The chances are equal




          Proof




          Suppose we consider all the possible outcomes. Then I propose, there is a one-to-one mapping from winning outcomes for you to winning outcomes for me.

          To see this, consider a scenario where you roll $i$ and I roll $j$ and you win ($i > j$). Then, in the case, that you roll $-i$ and I roll $-j$, I win (since ($-i < -j$). The mapping $(i,j) rightarrow (-i, -j)$ is clearly 1-1 for the given problem, it inverts the winner, and the set of draws maps onto itself.

          If we were to enumerate overall all possible outcomes, I would win the same number of times as you so the probability of winning must be the same.

          NB: This additionally show that the chances would be equal if we replaced $5$ and $20$ by any integer values.




          Alternative proof




          The probability of winning with the $41$-sided dice in a single go can be summed as the probability of winning given that the $11$-sided die rolls a $5,4,3,ldots$ multiplied by the probability of rolling a value in an $11$-sided die that is $$ P(41text{ wins}) = frac{1}{11}displaystyle sum_{j=15}^{25} frac{j}{41} = frac{220}{451}$$ Similarly, the probability of the $41$-sided die losing is given by calculating a similar sum $$ P(41 text{ loses}) = frac{1}{11}displaystyle sum_{j=25}^{15} frac{j}{41} = frac{220}{451}$$ where the sum is descending over the integers in this case. The probability of a single outcome being a draw is just $frac{11}{451}$.







          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$





















            5












            $begingroup$

            It:




            Doesn't matter.




            Why?




            The D11 wins with probability $frac{220}{451}$, where $220=16+17+dots+24+25$. It's a tie with probability $frac{11}{451}=frac1{41}$, and the D41 also wins with a probability of $frac{220}{451}$.







            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$





















              3












              $begingroup$

              I'd take the




              11-sided die




              because




              it has less sides, therefore it has less tendency to roll and thus it is easier to "aim" for a number with a controlled roll, at least after some practice. Even more so if the numbers are grouped with a cluster of positive numbers somewhere. Just like it is easier to throw a 4-sided die on a predetermined side than doing the same with a D20 which will inevitably roll away and land on a random number.







              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                An interesting take. The question talks about "fair dice" though. I'd think this implies no such tricks as well.
                $endgroup$
                – Gassa
                Dec 18 '18 at 10:13








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Gassa AFAIK "fair dice" means only that each of the faces have equal chance, i.e. it is not skewed, leaded, drilled, sanded or otherwise modified. A "fair roll" on the other hand would indeed imply no such tricks. As a corollary, my approach is of course not fair, but as the proper analytical answer has already been given and accepted, I ventured to offer a more unusual solution.
                $endgroup$
                – zovits
                Dec 18 '18 at 10:24



















              3












              $begingroup$

              Mapping out the 2-dimensional probability space you can see that the area in which each die wins is symmetrical, therefore it does not matter which die you choose, your odds of winning are the same.



               A -20 ... -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1  0  1  2  3  4  5  6 ... 20
              B
              -5 B B . A A A A A A A A A A A A
              -4 B B B . A A A A A A A A A A A
              -3 B B B B . A A A A A A A A A A
              -2 B B B B B . A A A A A A A A A
              -1 B B B B B B . A A A A A A A A
              0 B B B B B B B . A A A A A A A
              1 B B B B B B B B . A A A A A A
              2 B B B B B B B B B . A A A A A
              3 B B B B B B B B B B . A A A A
              4 B B B B B B B B B B B . A A A
              5 B B B B B B B B B B B B . A A





              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$





















                1












                $begingroup$

                The average value of each die rolled an infinite number of times will be zero for either die. So it makes no difference as neither has an advantage over the other for gaining a larger number.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$









                • 9




                  $begingroup$
                  Considering the long term average won't work in general. For example, consider the case where the first die has 40 on one side and -1 on every other side and the second die has -10 on one side and 1 on every other side. The average value is 0 for both dice but one of them is more likely to win.
                  $endgroup$
                  – hexomino
                  Dec 17 '18 at 17:12






                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  That's not an even distribution of frequency though, OPs example is.
                  $endgroup$
                  – George Appleton
                  Dec 17 '18 at 17:17






                • 10




                  $begingroup$
                  Sure, but do you see that the first sentence of your answer is true for my choice of dice as well as the OP's?
                  $endgroup$
                  – hexomino
                  Dec 17 '18 at 17:21





















                0












                $begingroup$


                The numbers of the smaller die are included in the bigger die, the possibilities are hence the same so we have to care only about the bigger die.

                All higher integers will win, all smaller ones will lose.

                There is an equal number of higher and smaller integers so the possibility is the same.







                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$





















                  0












                  $begingroup$


                  It doesn't which dice you pick.




                  Easy proof:




                  For each combination of a=the number on the first dice and b=the number on the second dice (where a and b are not equal), there is an equally likely combination -a and -b. If a beats b then -b beats -a, and conversely. Example 31 on the first dice beats 7 on the second dice, but it's equally likely to get -31 on the first dice and -7 on the second dice, where the second dice beats the first.







                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$





















                    -2












                    $begingroup$

                    I would take the 11 sided dice



                    because
                    P(getting a higher number in 20 sided dice ) = 1/11*25/41 + 1/11*24/41 + .. 1/11*15/41 = 220/451=10/41



                    P(getting a higher number in 11 sided dice ) = P(getting -20 in dice2)*P(getting a higher number in dice2) + P(getting -19 in dice2)*P(getting a higher number in dice2) + ..
                    =1/41*1 + 1/41*1 + .. etc = (1/41 )*15 + etc .. > 10/41



                    Clearly 11 sided dice wins..






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      Okay but you have the exact opposite on the negative side. The numbers range from -20 to 20 not 0 to 40
                      $endgroup$
                      – George Appleton
                      Dec 21 '18 at 16:12













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                    8 Answers
                    8






                    active

                    oldest

                    votes








                    8 Answers
                    8






                    active

                    oldest

                    votes









                    active

                    oldest

                    votes






                    active

                    oldest

                    votes









                    23












                    $begingroup$

                    The answer is




                    The chances are equal




                    Proof




                    Suppose we consider all the possible outcomes. Then I propose, there is a one-to-one mapping from winning outcomes for you to winning outcomes for me.

                    To see this, consider a scenario where you roll $i$ and I roll $j$ and you win ($i > j$). Then, in the case, that you roll $-i$ and I roll $-j$, I win (since ($-i < -j$). The mapping $(i,j) rightarrow (-i, -j)$ is clearly 1-1 for the given problem, it inverts the winner, and the set of draws maps onto itself.

                    If we were to enumerate overall all possible outcomes, I would win the same number of times as you so the probability of winning must be the same.

                    NB: This additionally show that the chances would be equal if we replaced $5$ and $20$ by any integer values.




                    Alternative proof




                    The probability of winning with the $41$-sided dice in a single go can be summed as the probability of winning given that the $11$-sided die rolls a $5,4,3,ldots$ multiplied by the probability of rolling a value in an $11$-sided die that is $$ P(41text{ wins}) = frac{1}{11}displaystyle sum_{j=15}^{25} frac{j}{41} = frac{220}{451}$$ Similarly, the probability of the $41$-sided die losing is given by calculating a similar sum $$ P(41 text{ loses}) = frac{1}{11}displaystyle sum_{j=25}^{15} frac{j}{41} = frac{220}{451}$$ where the sum is descending over the integers in this case. The probability of a single outcome being a draw is just $frac{11}{451}$.







                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$


















                      23












                      $begingroup$

                      The answer is




                      The chances are equal




                      Proof




                      Suppose we consider all the possible outcomes. Then I propose, there is a one-to-one mapping from winning outcomes for you to winning outcomes for me.

                      To see this, consider a scenario where you roll $i$ and I roll $j$ and you win ($i > j$). Then, in the case, that you roll $-i$ and I roll $-j$, I win (since ($-i < -j$). The mapping $(i,j) rightarrow (-i, -j)$ is clearly 1-1 for the given problem, it inverts the winner, and the set of draws maps onto itself.

                      If we were to enumerate overall all possible outcomes, I would win the same number of times as you so the probability of winning must be the same.

                      NB: This additionally show that the chances would be equal if we replaced $5$ and $20$ by any integer values.




                      Alternative proof




                      The probability of winning with the $41$-sided dice in a single go can be summed as the probability of winning given that the $11$-sided die rolls a $5,4,3,ldots$ multiplied by the probability of rolling a value in an $11$-sided die that is $$ P(41text{ wins}) = frac{1}{11}displaystyle sum_{j=15}^{25} frac{j}{41} = frac{220}{451}$$ Similarly, the probability of the $41$-sided die losing is given by calculating a similar sum $$ P(41 text{ loses}) = frac{1}{11}displaystyle sum_{j=25}^{15} frac{j}{41} = frac{220}{451}$$ where the sum is descending over the integers in this case. The probability of a single outcome being a draw is just $frac{11}{451}$.







                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$
















                        23












                        23








                        23





                        $begingroup$

                        The answer is




                        The chances are equal




                        Proof




                        Suppose we consider all the possible outcomes. Then I propose, there is a one-to-one mapping from winning outcomes for you to winning outcomes for me.

                        To see this, consider a scenario where you roll $i$ and I roll $j$ and you win ($i > j$). Then, in the case, that you roll $-i$ and I roll $-j$, I win (since ($-i < -j$). The mapping $(i,j) rightarrow (-i, -j)$ is clearly 1-1 for the given problem, it inverts the winner, and the set of draws maps onto itself.

                        If we were to enumerate overall all possible outcomes, I would win the same number of times as you so the probability of winning must be the same.

                        NB: This additionally show that the chances would be equal if we replaced $5$ and $20$ by any integer values.




                        Alternative proof




                        The probability of winning with the $41$-sided dice in a single go can be summed as the probability of winning given that the $11$-sided die rolls a $5,4,3,ldots$ multiplied by the probability of rolling a value in an $11$-sided die that is $$ P(41text{ wins}) = frac{1}{11}displaystyle sum_{j=15}^{25} frac{j}{41} = frac{220}{451}$$ Similarly, the probability of the $41$-sided die losing is given by calculating a similar sum $$ P(41 text{ loses}) = frac{1}{11}displaystyle sum_{j=25}^{15} frac{j}{41} = frac{220}{451}$$ where the sum is descending over the integers in this case. The probability of a single outcome being a draw is just $frac{11}{451}$.







                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$



                        The answer is




                        The chances are equal




                        Proof




                        Suppose we consider all the possible outcomes. Then I propose, there is a one-to-one mapping from winning outcomes for you to winning outcomes for me.

                        To see this, consider a scenario where you roll $i$ and I roll $j$ and you win ($i > j$). Then, in the case, that you roll $-i$ and I roll $-j$, I win (since ($-i < -j$). The mapping $(i,j) rightarrow (-i, -j)$ is clearly 1-1 for the given problem, it inverts the winner, and the set of draws maps onto itself.

                        If we were to enumerate overall all possible outcomes, I would win the same number of times as you so the probability of winning must be the same.

                        NB: This additionally show that the chances would be equal if we replaced $5$ and $20$ by any integer values.




                        Alternative proof




                        The probability of winning with the $41$-sided dice in a single go can be summed as the probability of winning given that the $11$-sided die rolls a $5,4,3,ldots$ multiplied by the probability of rolling a value in an $11$-sided die that is $$ P(41text{ wins}) = frac{1}{11}displaystyle sum_{j=15}^{25} frac{j}{41} = frac{220}{451}$$ Similarly, the probability of the $41$-sided die losing is given by calculating a similar sum $$ P(41 text{ loses}) = frac{1}{11}displaystyle sum_{j=25}^{15} frac{j}{41} = frac{220}{451}$$ where the sum is descending over the integers in this case. The probability of a single outcome being a draw is just $frac{11}{451}$.








                        share|improve this answer














                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer








                        edited Dec 17 '18 at 17:47

























                        answered Dec 17 '18 at 16:47









                        hexominohexomino

                        43k3128205




                        43k3128205























                            5












                            $begingroup$

                            It:




                            Doesn't matter.




                            Why?




                            The D11 wins with probability $frac{220}{451}$, where $220=16+17+dots+24+25$. It's a tie with probability $frac{11}{451}=frac1{41}$, and the D41 also wins with a probability of $frac{220}{451}$.







                            share|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$


















                              5












                              $begingroup$

                              It:




                              Doesn't matter.




                              Why?




                              The D11 wins with probability $frac{220}{451}$, where $220=16+17+dots+24+25$. It's a tie with probability $frac{11}{451}=frac1{41}$, and the D41 also wins with a probability of $frac{220}{451}$.







                              share|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$
















                                5












                                5








                                5





                                $begingroup$

                                It:




                                Doesn't matter.




                                Why?




                                The D11 wins with probability $frac{220}{451}$, where $220=16+17+dots+24+25$. It's a tie with probability $frac{11}{451}=frac1{41}$, and the D41 also wins with a probability of $frac{220}{451}$.







                                share|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$



                                It:




                                Doesn't matter.




                                Why?




                                The D11 wins with probability $frac{220}{451}$, where $220=16+17+dots+24+25$. It's a tie with probability $frac{11}{451}=frac1{41}$, and the D41 also wins with a probability of $frac{220}{451}$.








                                share|improve this answer












                                share|improve this answer



                                share|improve this answer










                                answered Dec 17 '18 at 16:52









                                JonMark PerryJonMark Perry

                                20.2k64098




                                20.2k64098























                                    3












                                    $begingroup$

                                    I'd take the




                                    11-sided die




                                    because




                                    it has less sides, therefore it has less tendency to roll and thus it is easier to "aim" for a number with a controlled roll, at least after some practice. Even more so if the numbers are grouped with a cluster of positive numbers somewhere. Just like it is easier to throw a 4-sided die on a predetermined side than doing the same with a D20 which will inevitably roll away and land on a random number.







                                    share|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$













                                    • $begingroup$
                                      An interesting take. The question talks about "fair dice" though. I'd think this implies no such tricks as well.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Gassa
                                      Dec 18 '18 at 10:13








                                    • 1




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @Gassa AFAIK "fair dice" means only that each of the faces have equal chance, i.e. it is not skewed, leaded, drilled, sanded or otherwise modified. A "fair roll" on the other hand would indeed imply no such tricks. As a corollary, my approach is of course not fair, but as the proper analytical answer has already been given and accepted, I ventured to offer a more unusual solution.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – zovits
                                      Dec 18 '18 at 10:24
















                                    3












                                    $begingroup$

                                    I'd take the




                                    11-sided die




                                    because




                                    it has less sides, therefore it has less tendency to roll and thus it is easier to "aim" for a number with a controlled roll, at least after some practice. Even more so if the numbers are grouped with a cluster of positive numbers somewhere. Just like it is easier to throw a 4-sided die on a predetermined side than doing the same with a D20 which will inevitably roll away and land on a random number.







                                    share|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$













                                    • $begingroup$
                                      An interesting take. The question talks about "fair dice" though. I'd think this implies no such tricks as well.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Gassa
                                      Dec 18 '18 at 10:13








                                    • 1




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @Gassa AFAIK "fair dice" means only that each of the faces have equal chance, i.e. it is not skewed, leaded, drilled, sanded or otherwise modified. A "fair roll" on the other hand would indeed imply no such tricks. As a corollary, my approach is of course not fair, but as the proper analytical answer has already been given and accepted, I ventured to offer a more unusual solution.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – zovits
                                      Dec 18 '18 at 10:24














                                    3












                                    3








                                    3





                                    $begingroup$

                                    I'd take the




                                    11-sided die




                                    because




                                    it has less sides, therefore it has less tendency to roll and thus it is easier to "aim" for a number with a controlled roll, at least after some practice. Even more so if the numbers are grouped with a cluster of positive numbers somewhere. Just like it is easier to throw a 4-sided die on a predetermined side than doing the same with a D20 which will inevitably roll away and land on a random number.







                                    share|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$



                                    I'd take the




                                    11-sided die




                                    because




                                    it has less sides, therefore it has less tendency to roll and thus it is easier to "aim" for a number with a controlled roll, at least after some practice. Even more so if the numbers are grouped with a cluster of positive numbers somewhere. Just like it is easier to throw a 4-sided die on a predetermined side than doing the same with a D20 which will inevitably roll away and land on a random number.








                                    share|improve this answer












                                    share|improve this answer



                                    share|improve this answer










                                    answered Dec 18 '18 at 7:43









                                    zovitszovits

                                    1304




                                    1304












                                    • $begingroup$
                                      An interesting take. The question talks about "fair dice" though. I'd think this implies no such tricks as well.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Gassa
                                      Dec 18 '18 at 10:13








                                    • 1




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @Gassa AFAIK "fair dice" means only that each of the faces have equal chance, i.e. it is not skewed, leaded, drilled, sanded or otherwise modified. A "fair roll" on the other hand would indeed imply no such tricks. As a corollary, my approach is of course not fair, but as the proper analytical answer has already been given and accepted, I ventured to offer a more unusual solution.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – zovits
                                      Dec 18 '18 at 10:24


















                                    • $begingroup$
                                      An interesting take. The question talks about "fair dice" though. I'd think this implies no such tricks as well.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Gassa
                                      Dec 18 '18 at 10:13








                                    • 1




                                      $begingroup$
                                      @Gassa AFAIK "fair dice" means only that each of the faces have equal chance, i.e. it is not skewed, leaded, drilled, sanded or otherwise modified. A "fair roll" on the other hand would indeed imply no such tricks. As a corollary, my approach is of course not fair, but as the proper analytical answer has already been given and accepted, I ventured to offer a more unusual solution.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – zovits
                                      Dec 18 '18 at 10:24
















                                    $begingroup$
                                    An interesting take. The question talks about "fair dice" though. I'd think this implies no such tricks as well.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – Gassa
                                    Dec 18 '18 at 10:13






                                    $begingroup$
                                    An interesting take. The question talks about "fair dice" though. I'd think this implies no such tricks as well.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – Gassa
                                    Dec 18 '18 at 10:13






                                    1




                                    1




                                    $begingroup$
                                    @Gassa AFAIK "fair dice" means only that each of the faces have equal chance, i.e. it is not skewed, leaded, drilled, sanded or otherwise modified. A "fair roll" on the other hand would indeed imply no such tricks. As a corollary, my approach is of course not fair, but as the proper analytical answer has already been given and accepted, I ventured to offer a more unusual solution.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – zovits
                                    Dec 18 '18 at 10:24




                                    $begingroup$
                                    @Gassa AFAIK "fair dice" means only that each of the faces have equal chance, i.e. it is not skewed, leaded, drilled, sanded or otherwise modified. A "fair roll" on the other hand would indeed imply no such tricks. As a corollary, my approach is of course not fair, but as the proper analytical answer has already been given and accepted, I ventured to offer a more unusual solution.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – zovits
                                    Dec 18 '18 at 10:24











                                    3












                                    $begingroup$

                                    Mapping out the 2-dimensional probability space you can see that the area in which each die wins is symmetrical, therefore it does not matter which die you choose, your odds of winning are the same.



                                     A -20 ... -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1  0  1  2  3  4  5  6 ... 20
                                    B
                                    -5 B B . A A A A A A A A A A A A
                                    -4 B B B . A A A A A A A A A A A
                                    -3 B B B B . A A A A A A A A A A
                                    -2 B B B B B . A A A A A A A A A
                                    -1 B B B B B B . A A A A A A A A
                                    0 B B B B B B B . A A A A A A A
                                    1 B B B B B B B B . A A A A A A
                                    2 B B B B B B B B B . A A A A A
                                    3 B B B B B B B B B B . A A A A
                                    4 B B B B B B B B B B B . A A A
                                    5 B B B B B B B B B B B B . A A





                                    share|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$


















                                      3












                                      $begingroup$

                                      Mapping out the 2-dimensional probability space you can see that the area in which each die wins is symmetrical, therefore it does not matter which die you choose, your odds of winning are the same.



                                       A -20 ... -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1  0  1  2  3  4  5  6 ... 20
                                      B
                                      -5 B B . A A A A A A A A A A A A
                                      -4 B B B . A A A A A A A A A A A
                                      -3 B B B B . A A A A A A A A A A
                                      -2 B B B B B . A A A A A A A A A
                                      -1 B B B B B B . A A A A A A A A
                                      0 B B B B B B B . A A A A A A A
                                      1 B B B B B B B B . A A A A A A
                                      2 B B B B B B B B B . A A A A A
                                      3 B B B B B B B B B B . A A A A
                                      4 B B B B B B B B B B B . A A A
                                      5 B B B B B B B B B B B B . A A





                                      share|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$
















                                        3












                                        3








                                        3





                                        $begingroup$

                                        Mapping out the 2-dimensional probability space you can see that the area in which each die wins is symmetrical, therefore it does not matter which die you choose, your odds of winning are the same.



                                         A -20 ... -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1  0  1  2  3  4  5  6 ... 20
                                        B
                                        -5 B B . A A A A A A A A A A A A
                                        -4 B B B . A A A A A A A A A A A
                                        -3 B B B B . A A A A A A A A A A
                                        -2 B B B B B . A A A A A A A A A
                                        -1 B B B B B B . A A A A A A A A
                                        0 B B B B B B B . A A A A A A A
                                        1 B B B B B B B B . A A A A A A
                                        2 B B B B B B B B B . A A A A A
                                        3 B B B B B B B B B B . A A A A
                                        4 B B B B B B B B B B B . A A A
                                        5 B B B B B B B B B B B B . A A





                                        share|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$



                                        Mapping out the 2-dimensional probability space you can see that the area in which each die wins is symmetrical, therefore it does not matter which die you choose, your odds of winning are the same.



                                         A -20 ... -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1  0  1  2  3  4  5  6 ... 20
                                        B
                                        -5 B B . A A A A A A A A A A A A
                                        -4 B B B . A A A A A A A A A A A
                                        -3 B B B B . A A A A A A A A A A
                                        -2 B B B B B . A A A A A A A A A
                                        -1 B B B B B B . A A A A A A A A
                                        0 B B B B B B B . A A A A A A A
                                        1 B B B B B B B B . A A A A A A
                                        2 B B B B B B B B B . A A A A A
                                        3 B B B B B B B B B B . A A A A
                                        4 B B B B B B B B B B B . A A A
                                        5 B B B B B B B B B B B B . A A






                                        share|improve this answer












                                        share|improve this answer



                                        share|improve this answer










                                        answered Dec 19 '18 at 15:13









                                        Paul SmithPaul Smith

                                        1313




                                        1313























                                            1












                                            $begingroup$

                                            The average value of each die rolled an infinite number of times will be zero for either die. So it makes no difference as neither has an advantage over the other for gaining a larger number.






                                            share|improve this answer









                                            $endgroup$









                                            • 9




                                              $begingroup$
                                              Considering the long term average won't work in general. For example, consider the case where the first die has 40 on one side and -1 on every other side and the second die has -10 on one side and 1 on every other side. The average value is 0 for both dice but one of them is more likely to win.
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – hexomino
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:12






                                            • 1




                                              $begingroup$
                                              That's not an even distribution of frequency though, OPs example is.
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – George Appleton
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:17






                                            • 10




                                              $begingroup$
                                              Sure, but do you see that the first sentence of your answer is true for my choice of dice as well as the OP's?
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – hexomino
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:21


















                                            1












                                            $begingroup$

                                            The average value of each die rolled an infinite number of times will be zero for either die. So it makes no difference as neither has an advantage over the other for gaining a larger number.






                                            share|improve this answer









                                            $endgroup$









                                            • 9




                                              $begingroup$
                                              Considering the long term average won't work in general. For example, consider the case where the first die has 40 on one side and -1 on every other side and the second die has -10 on one side and 1 on every other side. The average value is 0 for both dice but one of them is more likely to win.
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – hexomino
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:12






                                            • 1




                                              $begingroup$
                                              That's not an even distribution of frequency though, OPs example is.
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – George Appleton
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:17






                                            • 10




                                              $begingroup$
                                              Sure, but do you see that the first sentence of your answer is true for my choice of dice as well as the OP's?
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – hexomino
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:21
















                                            1












                                            1








                                            1





                                            $begingroup$

                                            The average value of each die rolled an infinite number of times will be zero for either die. So it makes no difference as neither has an advantage over the other for gaining a larger number.






                                            share|improve this answer









                                            $endgroup$



                                            The average value of each die rolled an infinite number of times will be zero for either die. So it makes no difference as neither has an advantage over the other for gaining a larger number.







                                            share|improve this answer












                                            share|improve this answer



                                            share|improve this answer










                                            answered Dec 17 '18 at 16:47









                                            George AppletonGeorge Appleton

                                            1192




                                            1192








                                            • 9




                                              $begingroup$
                                              Considering the long term average won't work in general. For example, consider the case where the first die has 40 on one side and -1 on every other side and the second die has -10 on one side and 1 on every other side. The average value is 0 for both dice but one of them is more likely to win.
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – hexomino
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:12






                                            • 1




                                              $begingroup$
                                              That's not an even distribution of frequency though, OPs example is.
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – George Appleton
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:17






                                            • 10




                                              $begingroup$
                                              Sure, but do you see that the first sentence of your answer is true for my choice of dice as well as the OP's?
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – hexomino
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:21
















                                            • 9




                                              $begingroup$
                                              Considering the long term average won't work in general. For example, consider the case where the first die has 40 on one side and -1 on every other side and the second die has -10 on one side and 1 on every other side. The average value is 0 for both dice but one of them is more likely to win.
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – hexomino
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:12






                                            • 1




                                              $begingroup$
                                              That's not an even distribution of frequency though, OPs example is.
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – George Appleton
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:17






                                            • 10




                                              $begingroup$
                                              Sure, but do you see that the first sentence of your answer is true for my choice of dice as well as the OP's?
                                              $endgroup$
                                              – hexomino
                                              Dec 17 '18 at 17:21










                                            9




                                            9




                                            $begingroup$
                                            Considering the long term average won't work in general. For example, consider the case where the first die has 40 on one side and -1 on every other side and the second die has -10 on one side and 1 on every other side. The average value is 0 for both dice but one of them is more likely to win.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – hexomino
                                            Dec 17 '18 at 17:12




                                            $begingroup$
                                            Considering the long term average won't work in general. For example, consider the case where the first die has 40 on one side and -1 on every other side and the second die has -10 on one side and 1 on every other side. The average value is 0 for both dice but one of them is more likely to win.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – hexomino
                                            Dec 17 '18 at 17:12




                                            1




                                            1




                                            $begingroup$
                                            That's not an even distribution of frequency though, OPs example is.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – George Appleton
                                            Dec 17 '18 at 17:17




                                            $begingroup$
                                            That's not an even distribution of frequency though, OPs example is.
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – George Appleton
                                            Dec 17 '18 at 17:17




                                            10




                                            10




                                            $begingroup$
                                            Sure, but do you see that the first sentence of your answer is true for my choice of dice as well as the OP's?
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – hexomino
                                            Dec 17 '18 at 17:21






                                            $begingroup$
                                            Sure, but do you see that the first sentence of your answer is true for my choice of dice as well as the OP's?
                                            $endgroup$
                                            – hexomino
                                            Dec 17 '18 at 17:21













                                            0












                                            $begingroup$


                                            The numbers of the smaller die are included in the bigger die, the possibilities are hence the same so we have to care only about the bigger die.

                                            All higher integers will win, all smaller ones will lose.

                                            There is an equal number of higher and smaller integers so the possibility is the same.







                                            share|improve this answer











                                            $endgroup$


















                                              0












                                              $begingroup$


                                              The numbers of the smaller die are included in the bigger die, the possibilities are hence the same so we have to care only about the bigger die.

                                              All higher integers will win, all smaller ones will lose.

                                              There is an equal number of higher and smaller integers so the possibility is the same.







                                              share|improve this answer











                                              $endgroup$
















                                                0












                                                0








                                                0





                                                $begingroup$


                                                The numbers of the smaller die are included in the bigger die, the possibilities are hence the same so we have to care only about the bigger die.

                                                All higher integers will win, all smaller ones will lose.

                                                There is an equal number of higher and smaller integers so the possibility is the same.







                                                share|improve this answer











                                                $endgroup$




                                                The numbers of the smaller die are included in the bigger die, the possibilities are hence the same so we have to care only about the bigger die.

                                                All higher integers will win, all smaller ones will lose.

                                                There is an equal number of higher and smaller integers so the possibility is the same.








                                                share|improve this answer














                                                share|improve this answer



                                                share|improve this answer








                                                edited Feb 1 at 19:58









                                                North

                                                2,3021736




                                                2,3021736










                                                answered Feb 1 at 18:39









                                                mikemike

                                                1




                                                1























                                                    0












                                                    $begingroup$


                                                    It doesn't which dice you pick.




                                                    Easy proof:




                                                    For each combination of a=the number on the first dice and b=the number on the second dice (where a and b are not equal), there is an equally likely combination -a and -b. If a beats b then -b beats -a, and conversely. Example 31 on the first dice beats 7 on the second dice, but it's equally likely to get -31 on the first dice and -7 on the second dice, where the second dice beats the first.







                                                    share|improve this answer











                                                    $endgroup$


















                                                      0












                                                      $begingroup$


                                                      It doesn't which dice you pick.




                                                      Easy proof:




                                                      For each combination of a=the number on the first dice and b=the number on the second dice (where a and b are not equal), there is an equally likely combination -a and -b. If a beats b then -b beats -a, and conversely. Example 31 on the first dice beats 7 on the second dice, but it's equally likely to get -31 on the first dice and -7 on the second dice, where the second dice beats the first.







                                                      share|improve this answer











                                                      $endgroup$
















                                                        0












                                                        0








                                                        0





                                                        $begingroup$


                                                        It doesn't which dice you pick.




                                                        Easy proof:




                                                        For each combination of a=the number on the first dice and b=the number on the second dice (where a and b are not equal), there is an equally likely combination -a and -b. If a beats b then -b beats -a, and conversely. Example 31 on the first dice beats 7 on the second dice, but it's equally likely to get -31 on the first dice and -7 on the second dice, where the second dice beats the first.







                                                        share|improve this answer











                                                        $endgroup$




                                                        It doesn't which dice you pick.




                                                        Easy proof:




                                                        For each combination of a=the number on the first dice and b=the number on the second dice (where a and b are not equal), there is an equally likely combination -a and -b. If a beats b then -b beats -a, and conversely. Example 31 on the first dice beats 7 on the second dice, but it's equally likely to get -31 on the first dice and -7 on the second dice, where the second dice beats the first.








                                                        share|improve this answer














                                                        share|improve this answer



                                                        share|improve this answer








                                                        edited Feb 5 at 11:41









                                                        Omega Krypton

                                                        4,7082441




                                                        4,7082441










                                                        answered Feb 5 at 11:07









                                                        Ken HaleyKen Haley

                                                        1




                                                        1























                                                            -2












                                                            $begingroup$

                                                            I would take the 11 sided dice



                                                            because
                                                            P(getting a higher number in 20 sided dice ) = 1/11*25/41 + 1/11*24/41 + .. 1/11*15/41 = 220/451=10/41



                                                            P(getting a higher number in 11 sided dice ) = P(getting -20 in dice2)*P(getting a higher number in dice2) + P(getting -19 in dice2)*P(getting a higher number in dice2) + ..
                                                            =1/41*1 + 1/41*1 + .. etc = (1/41 )*15 + etc .. > 10/41



                                                            Clearly 11 sided dice wins..






                                                            share|improve this answer











                                                            $endgroup$













                                                            • $begingroup$
                                                              Okay but you have the exact opposite on the negative side. The numbers range from -20 to 20 not 0 to 40
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – George Appleton
                                                              Dec 21 '18 at 16:12


















                                                            -2












                                                            $begingroup$

                                                            I would take the 11 sided dice



                                                            because
                                                            P(getting a higher number in 20 sided dice ) = 1/11*25/41 + 1/11*24/41 + .. 1/11*15/41 = 220/451=10/41



                                                            P(getting a higher number in 11 sided dice ) = P(getting -20 in dice2)*P(getting a higher number in dice2) + P(getting -19 in dice2)*P(getting a higher number in dice2) + ..
                                                            =1/41*1 + 1/41*1 + .. etc = (1/41 )*15 + etc .. > 10/41



                                                            Clearly 11 sided dice wins..






                                                            share|improve this answer











                                                            $endgroup$













                                                            • $begingroup$
                                                              Okay but you have the exact opposite on the negative side. The numbers range from -20 to 20 not 0 to 40
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – George Appleton
                                                              Dec 21 '18 at 16:12
















                                                            -2












                                                            -2








                                                            -2





                                                            $begingroup$

                                                            I would take the 11 sided dice



                                                            because
                                                            P(getting a higher number in 20 sided dice ) = 1/11*25/41 + 1/11*24/41 + .. 1/11*15/41 = 220/451=10/41



                                                            P(getting a higher number in 11 sided dice ) = P(getting -20 in dice2)*P(getting a higher number in dice2) + P(getting -19 in dice2)*P(getting a higher number in dice2) + ..
                                                            =1/41*1 + 1/41*1 + .. etc = (1/41 )*15 + etc .. > 10/41



                                                            Clearly 11 sided dice wins..






                                                            share|improve this answer











                                                            $endgroup$



                                                            I would take the 11 sided dice



                                                            because
                                                            P(getting a higher number in 20 sided dice ) = 1/11*25/41 + 1/11*24/41 + .. 1/11*15/41 = 220/451=10/41



                                                            P(getting a higher number in 11 sided dice ) = P(getting -20 in dice2)*P(getting a higher number in dice2) + P(getting -19 in dice2)*P(getting a higher number in dice2) + ..
                                                            =1/41*1 + 1/41*1 + .. etc = (1/41 )*15 + etc .. > 10/41



                                                            Clearly 11 sided dice wins..







                                                            share|improve this answer














                                                            share|improve this answer



                                                            share|improve this answer








                                                            edited Dec 19 '18 at 8:31

























                                                            answered Dec 18 '18 at 10:24









                                                            Liji JoseLiji Jose

                                                            12




                                                            12












                                                            • $begingroup$
                                                              Okay but you have the exact opposite on the negative side. The numbers range from -20 to 20 not 0 to 40
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – George Appleton
                                                              Dec 21 '18 at 16:12




















                                                            • $begingroup$
                                                              Okay but you have the exact opposite on the negative side. The numbers range from -20 to 20 not 0 to 40
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – George Appleton
                                                              Dec 21 '18 at 16:12


















                                                            $begingroup$
                                                            Okay but you have the exact opposite on the negative side. The numbers range from -20 to 20 not 0 to 40
                                                            $endgroup$
                                                            – George Appleton
                                                            Dec 21 '18 at 16:12






                                                            $begingroup$
                                                            Okay but you have the exact opposite on the negative side. The numbers range from -20 to 20 not 0 to 40
                                                            $endgroup$
                                                            – George Appleton
                                                            Dec 21 '18 at 16:12




















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