If $I$ is ideal of $R$, $N$ is submodule of $M$, then $Ifrac MN=frac{IM+N}N$
$begingroup$
$I$ is ideal of ring $R$. $M,N$ are $R$-modules and $N$ is submodule of $M$, how to prove:
$$Icdotfrac MN=frac{IM+N}N quad? $$
Conclusion:
It's not a "problem" to solve, just a notion. If you meet the same confusion, see answers below :)
abstract-algebra modules
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$I$ is ideal of ring $R$. $M,N$ are $R$-modules and $N$ is submodule of $M$, how to prove:
$$Icdotfrac MN=frac{IM+N}N quad? $$
Conclusion:
It's not a "problem" to solve, just a notion. If you meet the same confusion, see answers below :)
abstract-algebra modules
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Note that there is no reason why $N$ is contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$ is. Much like the isomorphism $M/(Mcap N) = (M+N)/ N$ makes sense because $Mcap Nsubseteq N$ and $M+Nsupseteq N$.
$endgroup$
– Pedro Tamaroff♦
Dec 25 '18 at 15:07
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$I$ is ideal of ring $R$. $M,N$ are $R$-modules and $N$ is submodule of $M$, how to prove:
$$Icdotfrac MN=frac{IM+N}N quad? $$
Conclusion:
It's not a "problem" to solve, just a notion. If you meet the same confusion, see answers below :)
abstract-algebra modules
$endgroup$
$I$ is ideal of ring $R$. $M,N$ are $R$-modules and $N$ is submodule of $M$, how to prove:
$$Icdotfrac MN=frac{IM+N}N quad? $$
Conclusion:
It's not a "problem" to solve, just a notion. If you meet the same confusion, see answers below :)
abstract-algebra modules
abstract-algebra modules
edited Dec 25 '18 at 17:49
Andrews
asked Dec 25 '18 at 15:04
AndrewsAndrews
1,2812423
1,2812423
2
$begingroup$
Note that there is no reason why $N$ is contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$ is. Much like the isomorphism $M/(Mcap N) = (M+N)/ N$ makes sense because $Mcap Nsubseteq N$ and $M+Nsupseteq N$.
$endgroup$
– Pedro Tamaroff♦
Dec 25 '18 at 15:07
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
Note that there is no reason why $N$ is contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$ is. Much like the isomorphism $M/(Mcap N) = (M+N)/ N$ makes sense because $Mcap Nsubseteq N$ and $M+Nsupseteq N$.
$endgroup$
– Pedro Tamaroff♦
Dec 25 '18 at 15:07
2
2
$begingroup$
Note that there is no reason why $N$ is contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$ is. Much like the isomorphism $M/(Mcap N) = (M+N)/ N$ makes sense because $Mcap Nsubseteq N$ and $M+Nsupseteq N$.
$endgroup$
– Pedro Tamaroff♦
Dec 25 '18 at 15:07
$begingroup$
Note that there is no reason why $N$ is contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$ is. Much like the isomorphism $M/(Mcap N) = (M+N)/ N$ makes sense because $Mcap Nsubseteq N$ and $M+Nsupseteq N$.
$endgroup$
– Pedro Tamaroff♦
Dec 25 '18 at 15:07
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Let $p_1:Mrightarrow M/N$, $I(M/N)$ is the submodule of $M/N$ generated by $p_1(im), iin I, min M$. $IM+N$ is a submodule of $M$ which contains $N$, we can define the quotient $p_2:IM+Nrightarrow (IM+N)/N$.
Consider $i:IM+Nrightarrow M$ the canonical injection and $p_3=p_1circ i$. $p_3(im+n)=p_1(im+n)=p(im)$. The kernel of $p_3$ contains $N$. This implies that $p_3$ induces a morphism $f: (IM+N)/Nrightarrow I(M/N)$. $f$ is surjective, and $f(p_2(im+n))=0$ is equivalent to $p_1(im)=0$ this is equivalent to saying that $imin N$ and $im+Nin N$, this implies that $p_2(im+n))=0$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
In expression $p_1(im)$, you naturally treat $N$ as submodule of $IM$, this nay not be ture if we take $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 17:04
$begingroup$
$p_1(im)in M/N$ so $N$ is not involved there.
$endgroup$
– Tsemo Aristide
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Isn't the equality obvious if you observe that
begin{alignat}{2}
I,(M/N)&=Bigl{sum_text{finite}i_k(m_k+N)Bigr}, quad rlap{i_kin I, m_kin M}\
&=Bigl{sum_text{finite}i_km_k+NBigr} &&text{by definition of the product by $i_k$ in $M/N$ }\
&=Bigl{Bigl(sum_text{finite}i_km_kBigr)+NBigr}=(IM+N)/N.
end{alignat}
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
let ring $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$. So I think there might be some mistake in your proof.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 16:55
$begingroup$
That's precisely because $N=nbf Z$ is not contained in $mbf Z$ that $N$ is added ($m_k+N$ is the congruence class of $m_k$ modulo $N$). All my reasoning and computation is with the congruence classes.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$I(M/N)= (IM+N)/N$ is just a definition(don’t overthink it!), because every element in $M/N$ is of the form $m+N$ so when you multiply by an $i in I$ you just get $im + N in IM+N$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Pedro Tamaroff's comment inspires my a lot.
$N$ may not be contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$.
Eg. $R=mathbb Z$, $I = pmathbb Z$, $M = mathbb Z$, $N = qmathbb Z$, then $IM = p mathbb Z$. However $N = qmathbb Z$ may not contained in $ IM = pmathbb Z$.
Notion ${IM}/N$ doesn't make much sence while $(IM+N)/N$ does, so we treat $im+N(iin I, min M)$ as element in $(IM+N)/N$. And it's just a matter of notion. .
Homomorphisms are:
$phi: Icdot M/Nto (IM+N)/N,quad icdot(m+N)mapsto im+N$.
$psi:(IM+N)/N to Icdot M/N,quad im+Nmapsto icdot(m+N)$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Let $p_1:Mrightarrow M/N$, $I(M/N)$ is the submodule of $M/N$ generated by $p_1(im), iin I, min M$. $IM+N$ is a submodule of $M$ which contains $N$, we can define the quotient $p_2:IM+Nrightarrow (IM+N)/N$.
Consider $i:IM+Nrightarrow M$ the canonical injection and $p_3=p_1circ i$. $p_3(im+n)=p_1(im+n)=p(im)$. The kernel of $p_3$ contains $N$. This implies that $p_3$ induces a morphism $f: (IM+N)/Nrightarrow I(M/N)$. $f$ is surjective, and $f(p_2(im+n))=0$ is equivalent to $p_1(im)=0$ this is equivalent to saying that $imin N$ and $im+Nin N$, this implies that $p_2(im+n))=0$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
In expression $p_1(im)$, you naturally treat $N$ as submodule of $IM$, this nay not be ture if we take $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 17:04
$begingroup$
$p_1(im)in M/N$ so $N$ is not involved there.
$endgroup$
– Tsemo Aristide
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $p_1:Mrightarrow M/N$, $I(M/N)$ is the submodule of $M/N$ generated by $p_1(im), iin I, min M$. $IM+N$ is a submodule of $M$ which contains $N$, we can define the quotient $p_2:IM+Nrightarrow (IM+N)/N$.
Consider $i:IM+Nrightarrow M$ the canonical injection and $p_3=p_1circ i$. $p_3(im+n)=p_1(im+n)=p(im)$. The kernel of $p_3$ contains $N$. This implies that $p_3$ induces a morphism $f: (IM+N)/Nrightarrow I(M/N)$. $f$ is surjective, and $f(p_2(im+n))=0$ is equivalent to $p_1(im)=0$ this is equivalent to saying that $imin N$ and $im+Nin N$, this implies that $p_2(im+n))=0$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
In expression $p_1(im)$, you naturally treat $N$ as submodule of $IM$, this nay not be ture if we take $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 17:04
$begingroup$
$p_1(im)in M/N$ so $N$ is not involved there.
$endgroup$
– Tsemo Aristide
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $p_1:Mrightarrow M/N$, $I(M/N)$ is the submodule of $M/N$ generated by $p_1(im), iin I, min M$. $IM+N$ is a submodule of $M$ which contains $N$, we can define the quotient $p_2:IM+Nrightarrow (IM+N)/N$.
Consider $i:IM+Nrightarrow M$ the canonical injection and $p_3=p_1circ i$. $p_3(im+n)=p_1(im+n)=p(im)$. The kernel of $p_3$ contains $N$. This implies that $p_3$ induces a morphism $f: (IM+N)/Nrightarrow I(M/N)$. $f$ is surjective, and $f(p_2(im+n))=0$ is equivalent to $p_1(im)=0$ this is equivalent to saying that $imin N$ and $im+Nin N$, this implies that $p_2(im+n))=0$.
$endgroup$
Let $p_1:Mrightarrow M/N$, $I(M/N)$ is the submodule of $M/N$ generated by $p_1(im), iin I, min M$. $IM+N$ is a submodule of $M$ which contains $N$, we can define the quotient $p_2:IM+Nrightarrow (IM+N)/N$.
Consider $i:IM+Nrightarrow M$ the canonical injection and $p_3=p_1circ i$. $p_3(im+n)=p_1(im+n)=p(im)$. The kernel of $p_3$ contains $N$. This implies that $p_3$ induces a morphism $f: (IM+N)/Nrightarrow I(M/N)$. $f$ is surjective, and $f(p_2(im+n))=0$ is equivalent to $p_1(im)=0$ this is equivalent to saying that $imin N$ and $im+Nin N$, this implies that $p_2(im+n))=0$.
edited Dec 25 '18 at 17:05
answered Dec 25 '18 at 15:16
Tsemo AristideTsemo Aristide
60.3k11446
60.3k11446
$begingroup$
In expression $p_1(im)$, you naturally treat $N$ as submodule of $IM$, this nay not be ture if we take $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 17:04
$begingroup$
$p_1(im)in M/N$ so $N$ is not involved there.
$endgroup$
– Tsemo Aristide
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In expression $p_1(im)$, you naturally treat $N$ as submodule of $IM$, this nay not be ture if we take $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 17:04
$begingroup$
$p_1(im)in M/N$ so $N$ is not involved there.
$endgroup$
– Tsemo Aristide
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
$begingroup$
In expression $p_1(im)$, you naturally treat $N$ as submodule of $IM$, this nay not be ture if we take $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 17:04
$begingroup$
In expression $p_1(im)$, you naturally treat $N$ as submodule of $IM$, this nay not be ture if we take $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 17:04
$begingroup$
$p_1(im)in M/N$ so $N$ is not involved there.
$endgroup$
– Tsemo Aristide
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
$begingroup$
$p_1(im)in M/N$ so $N$ is not involved there.
$endgroup$
– Tsemo Aristide
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Isn't the equality obvious if you observe that
begin{alignat}{2}
I,(M/N)&=Bigl{sum_text{finite}i_k(m_k+N)Bigr}, quad rlap{i_kin I, m_kin M}\
&=Bigl{sum_text{finite}i_km_k+NBigr} &&text{by definition of the product by $i_k$ in $M/N$ }\
&=Bigl{Bigl(sum_text{finite}i_km_kBigr)+NBigr}=(IM+N)/N.
end{alignat}
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
let ring $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$. So I think there might be some mistake in your proof.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 16:55
$begingroup$
That's precisely because $N=nbf Z$ is not contained in $mbf Z$ that $N$ is added ($m_k+N$ is the congruence class of $m_k$ modulo $N$). All my reasoning and computation is with the congruence classes.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Isn't the equality obvious if you observe that
begin{alignat}{2}
I,(M/N)&=Bigl{sum_text{finite}i_k(m_k+N)Bigr}, quad rlap{i_kin I, m_kin M}\
&=Bigl{sum_text{finite}i_km_k+NBigr} &&text{by definition of the product by $i_k$ in $M/N$ }\
&=Bigl{Bigl(sum_text{finite}i_km_kBigr)+NBigr}=(IM+N)/N.
end{alignat}
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
let ring $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$. So I think there might be some mistake in your proof.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 16:55
$begingroup$
That's precisely because $N=nbf Z$ is not contained in $mbf Z$ that $N$ is added ($m_k+N$ is the congruence class of $m_k$ modulo $N$). All my reasoning and computation is with the congruence classes.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Isn't the equality obvious if you observe that
begin{alignat}{2}
I,(M/N)&=Bigl{sum_text{finite}i_k(m_k+N)Bigr}, quad rlap{i_kin I, m_kin M}\
&=Bigl{sum_text{finite}i_km_k+NBigr} &&text{by definition of the product by $i_k$ in $M/N$ }\
&=Bigl{Bigl(sum_text{finite}i_km_kBigr)+NBigr}=(IM+N)/N.
end{alignat}
$endgroup$
Isn't the equality obvious if you observe that
begin{alignat}{2}
I,(M/N)&=Bigl{sum_text{finite}i_k(m_k+N)Bigr}, quad rlap{i_kin I, m_kin M}\
&=Bigl{sum_text{finite}i_km_k+NBigr} &&text{by definition of the product by $i_k$ in $M/N$ }\
&=Bigl{Bigl(sum_text{finite}i_km_kBigr)+NBigr}=(IM+N)/N.
end{alignat}
answered Dec 25 '18 at 15:32
BernardBernard
124k741117
124k741117
$begingroup$
let ring $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$. So I think there might be some mistake in your proof.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 16:55
$begingroup$
That's precisely because $N=nbf Z$ is not contained in $mbf Z$ that $N$ is added ($m_k+N$ is the congruence class of $m_k$ modulo $N$). All my reasoning and computation is with the congruence classes.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
let ring $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$. So I think there might be some mistake in your proof.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 16:55
$begingroup$
That's precisely because $N=nbf Z$ is not contained in $mbf Z$ that $N$ is added ($m_k+N$ is the congruence class of $m_k$ modulo $N$). All my reasoning and computation is with the congruence classes.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
$begingroup$
let ring $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$. So I think there might be some mistake in your proof.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 16:55
$begingroup$
let ring $R = mathbb Z$, $I = mmathbb Z$, $M=mathbb Z$, $N=nmathbb Z$, then $IM = mmathbb Z$. However $N=nmathbb Z$ may not contained in $IM = mmathbb Z$. So I think there might be some mistake in your proof.
$endgroup$
– Andrews
Dec 25 '18 at 16:55
$begingroup$
That's precisely because $N=nbf Z$ is not contained in $mbf Z$ that $N$ is added ($m_k+N$ is the congruence class of $m_k$ modulo $N$). All my reasoning and computation is with the congruence classes.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
$begingroup$
That's precisely because $N=nbf Z$ is not contained in $mbf Z$ that $N$ is added ($m_k+N$ is the congruence class of $m_k$ modulo $N$). All my reasoning and computation is with the congruence classes.
$endgroup$
– Bernard
Dec 25 '18 at 17:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$I(M/N)= (IM+N)/N$ is just a definition(don’t overthink it!), because every element in $M/N$ is of the form $m+N$ so when you multiply by an $i in I$ you just get $im + N in IM+N$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$I(M/N)= (IM+N)/N$ is just a definition(don’t overthink it!), because every element in $M/N$ is of the form $m+N$ so when you multiply by an $i in I$ you just get $im + N in IM+N$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$I(M/N)= (IM+N)/N$ is just a definition(don’t overthink it!), because every element in $M/N$ is of the form $m+N$ so when you multiply by an $i in I$ you just get $im + N in IM+N$
$endgroup$
$I(M/N)= (IM+N)/N$ is just a definition(don’t overthink it!), because every element in $M/N$ is of the form $m+N$ so when you multiply by an $i in I$ you just get $im + N in IM+N$
edited Dec 25 '18 at 17:27
Andrews
1,2812423
1,2812423
answered Dec 25 '18 at 17:12
Sorin TircSorin Tirc
1,865213
1,865213
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Pedro Tamaroff's comment inspires my a lot.
$N$ may not be contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$.
Eg. $R=mathbb Z$, $I = pmathbb Z$, $M = mathbb Z$, $N = qmathbb Z$, then $IM = p mathbb Z$. However $N = qmathbb Z$ may not contained in $ IM = pmathbb Z$.
Notion ${IM}/N$ doesn't make much sence while $(IM+N)/N$ does, so we treat $im+N(iin I, min M)$ as element in $(IM+N)/N$. And it's just a matter of notion. .
Homomorphisms are:
$phi: Icdot M/Nto (IM+N)/N,quad icdot(m+N)mapsto im+N$.
$psi:(IM+N)/N to Icdot M/N,quad im+Nmapsto icdot(m+N)$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Pedro Tamaroff's comment inspires my a lot.
$N$ may not be contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$.
Eg. $R=mathbb Z$, $I = pmathbb Z$, $M = mathbb Z$, $N = qmathbb Z$, then $IM = p mathbb Z$. However $N = qmathbb Z$ may not contained in $ IM = pmathbb Z$.
Notion ${IM}/N$ doesn't make much sence while $(IM+N)/N$ does, so we treat $im+N(iin I, min M)$ as element in $(IM+N)/N$. And it's just a matter of notion. .
Homomorphisms are:
$phi: Icdot M/Nto (IM+N)/N,quad icdot(m+N)mapsto im+N$.
$psi:(IM+N)/N to Icdot M/N,quad im+Nmapsto icdot(m+N)$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Pedro Tamaroff's comment inspires my a lot.
$N$ may not be contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$.
Eg. $R=mathbb Z$, $I = pmathbb Z$, $M = mathbb Z$, $N = qmathbb Z$, then $IM = p mathbb Z$. However $N = qmathbb Z$ may not contained in $ IM = pmathbb Z$.
Notion ${IM}/N$ doesn't make much sence while $(IM+N)/N$ does, so we treat $im+N(iin I, min M)$ as element in $(IM+N)/N$. And it's just a matter of notion. .
Homomorphisms are:
$phi: Icdot M/Nto (IM+N)/N,quad icdot(m+N)mapsto im+N$.
$psi:(IM+N)/N to Icdot M/N,quad im+Nmapsto icdot(m+N)$.
$endgroup$
Pedro Tamaroff's comment inspires my a lot.
$N$ may not be contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$.
Eg. $R=mathbb Z$, $I = pmathbb Z$, $M = mathbb Z$, $N = qmathbb Z$, then $IM = p mathbb Z$. However $N = qmathbb Z$ may not contained in $ IM = pmathbb Z$.
Notion ${IM}/N$ doesn't make much sence while $(IM+N)/N$ does, so we treat $im+N(iin I, min M)$ as element in $(IM+N)/N$. And it's just a matter of notion. .
Homomorphisms are:
$phi: Icdot M/Nto (IM+N)/N,quad icdot(m+N)mapsto im+N$.
$psi:(IM+N)/N to Icdot M/N,quad im+Nmapsto icdot(m+N)$.
edited Dec 25 '18 at 17:45
answered Dec 25 '18 at 17:25
AndrewsAndrews
1,2812423
1,2812423
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$begingroup$
Note that there is no reason why $N$ is contained in $IM$, but it is contained in $IM+N$ is. Much like the isomorphism $M/(Mcap N) = (M+N)/ N$ makes sense because $Mcap Nsubseteq N$ and $M+Nsupseteq N$.
$endgroup$
– Pedro Tamaroff♦
Dec 25 '18 at 15:07