Why are “two instances of /r/ in one word” awkward?
up vote
1
down vote
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Why Do Languages Change? (2010) by R. L. Trask. pp. 5-6
Our story moves now to Scotland, where the word grammar underwent a
small change of pronunciation to glamour, reflecting the awkwardness of
having two instances of /r/ in one word.
Can somebody please help me sympathize? grammar isn't awkward for me to pronounce.
phonology
asked 2 hours ago
Antinatalist
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up vote
1
down vote
favorite
Why Do Languages Change? (2010) by R. L. Trask. pp. 5-6
Our story moves now to Scotland, where the word grammar underwent a
small change of pronunciation to glamour, reflecting the awkwardness of
having two instances of /r/ in one word.
Can somebody please help me sympathize? grammar isn't awkward for me to pronounce.
phonology
asked 2 hours ago
Antinatalist
61
New contributor
Antinatalist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
Why Do Languages Change? (2010) by R. L. Trask. pp. 5-6
Our story moves now to Scotland, where the word grammar underwent a
small change of pronunciation to glamour, reflecting the awkwardness of
having two instances of /r/ in one word.
Can somebody please help me sympathize? grammar isn't awkward for me to pronounce.
phonology
asked 2 hours ago
Antinatalist
61
New contributor
Antinatalist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Why Do Languages Change? (2010) by R. L. Trask. pp. 5-6
Our story moves now to Scotland, where the word grammar underwent a
small change of pronunciation to glamour, reflecting the awkwardness of
having two instances of /r/ in one word.
Can somebody please help me sympathize? grammar isn't awkward for me to pronounce.
phonology
phonology
asked 2 hours ago
Antinatalist
61
New contributor
Antinatalist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
Antinatalist
61
New contributor
Antinatalist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
Antinatalist
61
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Antinatalist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
Antinatalist
61
asked 2 hours ago
Antinatalist
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61
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Antinatalist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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1 Answer
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up vote
3
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The only sensible interpretation of that claim that I can see is that having two instances of r in a word poses a special articulatory challenge. However there is no evidence to support that claim. A more plausible explanation is that the cause is perceptual. First, we may assume (there is some evidence) that r has a subtle long-distance effect in words, lowering of F3. In a word with two rhotics, it may be difficult to tell what the source of the general rhotic flavor of the word is, so listeners filter out one of the rhotics as being a phonetic side-effect of the other. This occurs in other languages including Georgian, Yimas and Sundanese.
answered 2 hours ago
user6726
32.4k11858
1
I don't think we can dismiss the articulatory challenge out of hand. There are corroborating facts, such as the relative typological rarity of English's /r/ and its prevalence as a target of speech therapy.
– Luke Sawczak
2 hours ago
Note also that the other languages with r-dissimilation do not have the odd r that English has, but they have the dissimilation.
– user6726
1 hour ago
That's true, though that doesn't mean their /r/ isn't also difficult to articulate. The alveolar tap and trill in Spanish, for example, are more or less the same as the Scottish English /r/, so it would be circular to use that example to rule out the articulatory explanation for the Scottish one. (And I acknowledge that this is a different /r/ than the one I mentioned above, but the source as quoted doesn't clarify which one is in questio in the Scottish example.)
– Luke Sawczak
1 hour ago
The alveolar trip in Italian is pretty much "the" speech impediment that most people are familiar with (lisp being second at some distance, I suspect).
– LjL
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
The only sensible interpretation of that claim that I can see is that having two instances of r in a word poses a special articulatory challenge. However there is no evidence to support that claim. A more plausible explanation is that the cause is perceptual. First, we may assume (there is some evidence) that r has a subtle long-distance effect in words, lowering of F3. In a word with two rhotics, it may be difficult to tell what the source of the general rhotic flavor of the word is, so listeners filter out one of the rhotics as being a phonetic side-effect of the other. This occurs in other languages including Georgian, Yimas and Sundanese.
answered 2 hours ago
user6726
32.4k11858
1
I don't think we can dismiss the articulatory challenge out of hand. There are corroborating facts, such as the relative typological rarity of English's /r/ and its prevalence as a target of speech therapy.
– Luke Sawczak
2 hours ago
Note also that the other languages with r-dissimilation do not have the odd r that English has, but they have the dissimilation.
– user6726
1 hour ago
That's true, though that doesn't mean their /r/ isn't also difficult to articulate. The alveolar tap and trill in Spanish, for example, are more or less the same as the Scottish English /r/, so it would be circular to use that example to rule out the articulatory explanation for the Scottish one. (And I acknowledge that this is a different /r/ than the one I mentioned above, but the source as quoted doesn't clarify which one is in questio in the Scottish example.)
– Luke Sawczak
1 hour ago
The alveolar trip in Italian is pretty much "the" speech impediment that most people are familiar with (lisp being second at some distance, I suspect).
– LjL
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
The only sensible interpretation of that claim that I can see is that having two instances of r in a word poses a special articulatory challenge. However there is no evidence to support that claim. A more plausible explanation is that the cause is perceptual. First, we may assume (there is some evidence) that r has a subtle long-distance effect in words, lowering of F3. In a word with two rhotics, it may be difficult to tell what the source of the general rhotic flavor of the word is, so listeners filter out one of the rhotics as being a phonetic side-effect of the other. This occurs in other languages including Georgian, Yimas and Sundanese.
answered 2 hours ago
user6726
32.4k11858
1
I don't think we can dismiss the articulatory challenge out of hand. There are corroborating facts, such as the relative typological rarity of English's /r/ and its prevalence as a target of speech therapy.
– Luke Sawczak
2 hours ago
Note also that the other languages with r-dissimilation do not have the odd r that English has, but they have the dissimilation.
– user6726
1 hour ago
That's true, though that doesn't mean their /r/ isn't also difficult to articulate. The alveolar tap and trill in Spanish, for example, are more or less the same as the Scottish English /r/, so it would be circular to use that example to rule out the articulatory explanation for the Scottish one. (And I acknowledge that this is a different /r/ than the one I mentioned above, but the source as quoted doesn't clarify which one is in questio in the Scottish example.)
– Luke Sawczak
1 hour ago
The alveolar trip in Italian is pretty much "the" speech impediment that most people are familiar with (lisp being second at some distance, I suspect).
– LjL
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
The only sensible interpretation of that claim that I can see is that having two instances of r in a word poses a special articulatory challenge. However there is no evidence to support that claim. A more plausible explanation is that the cause is perceptual. First, we may assume (there is some evidence) that r has a subtle long-distance effect in words, lowering of F3. In a word with two rhotics, it may be difficult to tell what the source of the general rhotic flavor of the word is, so listeners filter out one of the rhotics as being a phonetic side-effect of the other. This occurs in other languages including Georgian, Yimas and Sundanese.
answered 2 hours ago
user6726
32.4k11858
The only sensible interpretation of that claim that I can see is that having two instances of r in a word poses a special articulatory challenge. However there is no evidence to support that claim. A more plausible explanation is that the cause is perceptual. First, we may assume (there is some evidence) that r has a subtle long-distance effect in words, lowering of F3. In a word with two rhotics, it may be difficult to tell what the source of the general rhotic flavor of the word is, so listeners filter out one of the rhotics as being a phonetic side-effect of the other. This occurs in other languages including Georgian, Yimas and Sundanese.
answered 2 hours ago
user6726
32.4k11858
answered 2 hours ago
user6726
32.4k11858
answered 2 hours ago
user6726
32.4k11858
answered 2 hours ago
user6726
32.4k11858
32.4k11858
1
I don't think we can dismiss the articulatory challenge out of hand. There are corroborating facts, such as the relative typological rarity of English's /r/ and its prevalence as a target of speech therapy.
– Luke Sawczak
2 hours ago
Note also that the other languages with r-dissimilation do not have the odd r that English has, but they have the dissimilation.
– user6726
1 hour ago
That's true, though that doesn't mean their /r/ isn't also difficult to articulate. The alveolar tap and trill in Spanish, for example, are more or less the same as the Scottish English /r/, so it would be circular to use that example to rule out the articulatory explanation for the Scottish one. (And I acknowledge that this is a different /r/ than the one I mentioned above, but the source as quoted doesn't clarify which one is in questio in the Scottish example.)
– Luke Sawczak
1 hour ago
The alveolar trip in Italian is pretty much "the" speech impediment that most people are familiar with (lisp being second at some distance, I suspect).
– LjL
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
I don't think we can dismiss the articulatory challenge out of hand. There are corroborating facts, such as the relative typological rarity of English's /r/ and its prevalence as a target of speech therapy.
– Luke Sawczak
2 hours ago
Note also that the other languages with r-dissimilation do not have the odd r that English has, but they have the dissimilation.
– user6726
1 hour ago
That's true, though that doesn't mean their /r/ isn't also difficult to articulate. The alveolar tap and trill in Spanish, for example, are more or less the same as the Scottish English /r/, so it would be circular to use that example to rule out the articulatory explanation for the Scottish one. (And I acknowledge that this is a different /r/ than the one I mentioned above, but the source as quoted doesn't clarify which one is in questio in the Scottish example.)
– Luke Sawczak
1 hour ago
The alveolar trip in Italian is pretty much "the" speech impediment that most people are familiar with (lisp being second at some distance, I suspect).
– LjL
1 hour ago
1
1
I don't think we can dismiss the articulatory challenge out of hand. There are corroborating facts, such as the relative typological rarity of English's /r/ and its prevalence as a target of speech therapy.
– Luke Sawczak
2 hours ago
I don't think we can dismiss the articulatory challenge out of hand. There are corroborating facts, such as the relative typological rarity of English's /r/ and its prevalence as a target of speech therapy.
– Luke Sawczak
2 hours ago
Note also that the other languages with r-dissimilation do not have the odd r that English has, but they have the dissimilation.
– user6726
1 hour ago
Note also that the other languages with r-dissimilation do not have the odd r that English has, but they have the dissimilation.
– user6726
1 hour ago
That's true, though that doesn't mean their /r/ isn't also difficult to articulate. The alveolar tap and trill in Spanish, for example, are more or less the same as the Scottish English /r/, so it would be circular to use that example to rule out the articulatory explanation for the Scottish one. (And I acknowledge that this is a different /r/ than the one I mentioned above, but the source as quoted doesn't clarify which one is in questio in the Scottish example.)
– Luke Sawczak
1 hour ago
That's true, though that doesn't mean their /r/ isn't also difficult to articulate. The alveolar tap and trill in Spanish, for example, are more or less the same as the Scottish English /r/, so it would be circular to use that example to rule out the articulatory explanation for the Scottish one. (And I acknowledge that this is a different /r/ than the one I mentioned above, but the source as quoted doesn't clarify which one is in questio in the Scottish example.)
– Luke Sawczak
1 hour ago
The alveolar trip in Italian is pretty much "the" speech impediment that most people are familiar with (lisp being second at some distance, I suspect).
– LjL
1 hour ago
The alveolar trip in Italian is pretty much "the" speech impediment that most people are familiar with (lisp being second at some distance, I suspect).
– LjL
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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