Has an encirclement ever succeeded with numerically inferior cavalry?











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This is a follow up to my previous question. In all the examples given there was some other advantage that decided the battle and not encirclement. For example at Narva



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Narva_(1700)




They attacked inexperienced Russian regiments and crumbled them one by one.




Also Finnish Motti tactics in the winter war, Teutoburg etc are a type of divide and conquer ambush tactic and not simply an encirclement. At Alesia there are no historical details but I have not seen evidence Rome had less cavalry than the enemy.



I cant find any examples where the encircler didn't have have a superior local number of motivated cavalry.



Has an encirclement ever succeeded with numerically inferior cavalry?










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  • According to the Swedish version of the wiki page you link to (I cannot find the 2nd number in the English one), the Swedes had 4300 and the Russians 6000 cavalrymen at Narva. But I don't think they were so important in the actual battle.
    – Tomas By
    4 hours ago

















up vote
2
down vote

favorite












This is a follow up to my previous question. In all the examples given there was some other advantage that decided the battle and not encirclement. For example at Narva



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Narva_(1700)




They attacked inexperienced Russian regiments and crumbled them one by one.




Also Finnish Motti tactics in the winter war, Teutoburg etc are a type of divide and conquer ambush tactic and not simply an encirclement. At Alesia there are no historical details but I have not seen evidence Rome had less cavalry than the enemy.



I cant find any examples where the encircler didn't have have a superior local number of motivated cavalry.



Has an encirclement ever succeeded with numerically inferior cavalry?










share|improve this question









New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • According to the Swedish version of the wiki page you link to (I cannot find the 2nd number in the English one), the Swedes had 4300 and the Russians 6000 cavalrymen at Narva. But I don't think they were so important in the actual battle.
    – Tomas By
    4 hours ago















up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











This is a follow up to my previous question. In all the examples given there was some other advantage that decided the battle and not encirclement. For example at Narva



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Narva_(1700)




They attacked inexperienced Russian regiments and crumbled them one by one.




Also Finnish Motti tactics in the winter war, Teutoburg etc are a type of divide and conquer ambush tactic and not simply an encirclement. At Alesia there are no historical details but I have not seen evidence Rome had less cavalry than the enemy.



I cant find any examples where the encircler didn't have have a superior local number of motivated cavalry.



Has an encirclement ever succeeded with numerically inferior cavalry?










share|improve this question









New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











This is a follow up to my previous question. In all the examples given there was some other advantage that decided the battle and not encirclement. For example at Narva



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Narva_(1700)




They attacked inexperienced Russian regiments and crumbled them one by one.




Also Finnish Motti tactics in the winter war, Teutoburg etc are a type of divide and conquer ambush tactic and not simply an encirclement. At Alesia there are no historical details but I have not seen evidence Rome had less cavalry than the enemy.



I cant find any examples where the encircler didn't have have a superior local number of motivated cavalry.



Has an encirclement ever succeeded with numerically inferior cavalry?







war






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edited 5 hours ago









KorvinStarmast

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  • According to the Swedish version of the wiki page you link to (I cannot find the 2nd number in the English one), the Swedes had 4300 and the Russians 6000 cavalrymen at Narva. But I don't think they were so important in the actual battle.
    – Tomas By
    4 hours ago




















  • According to the Swedish version of the wiki page you link to (I cannot find the 2nd number in the English one), the Swedes had 4300 and the Russians 6000 cavalrymen at Narva. But I don't think they were so important in the actual battle.
    – Tomas By
    4 hours ago


















According to the Swedish version of the wiki page you link to (I cannot find the 2nd number in the English one), the Swedes had 4300 and the Russians 6000 cavalrymen at Narva. But I don't think they were so important in the actual battle.
– Tomas By
4 hours ago






According to the Swedish version of the wiki page you link to (I cannot find the 2nd number in the English one), the Swedes had 4300 and the Russians 6000 cavalrymen at Narva. But I don't think they were so important in the actual battle.
– Tomas By
4 hours ago












3 Answers
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The Battle of Cowpens where 300 British cavalry (250 of the British Legion plus 50 of the 17th Light Dragoons) outnumbered American Cavalry of only ~180 men and horses ("82 Continental light dragoons; 55 state dragoons; 45 militia dragoons") by almost 2:1.



Total forces for both sides were about 1,150 British against about 1,900 (most poorly trained and disciplined militia) Americans.




Caught in a clever double envelopment that has been compared with the Battle of Cannae in ancient times, many of the British surrendered.




AN interesting note - in both this battle and Cannae, Morgan and Hannibal leverage the very weakness of their main battle line into a tactical advantage that sets up the double envelopment.



enter image description here






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  • 1




    Do Dragoons really count as cavalry??!!?!one. ducks and hides
    – Samuel Russell
    48 mins ago








  • 1




    @SamuelRussell: Emmanuel Grouchy's dragoons were always competent cavalry. Prior to the 1840's I doubt a British dragoon, light or heavy, could have distinguished a carbine from a pistol.
    – Pieter Geerkens
    35 mins ago




















up vote
2
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I'm not sure if this counts as a valid answer, but ships of the line are always superior to cavalry. Or, in this case: nearly always.



In 1793 the Dutch fleet was frozen at anchor, moored close to Den Helder, near the island of Texel. That winter was quite severe, even the Rhine river froze over. The Dutch republic was at war with the French republic - and losing. A French cavalry unit captured the fleet intact.



General Pichechru (in Dutch he's known as Pietje Cru) knew the ships were iced in. He ordered the very appropriate named general Jan Willem de Winter to capture the fleet intact. He used hussars and infantry, carried on the backs of the horses. The hooves were covered with fabric to muffle the sound. The hussars rode up to the ships, quietly, and the infantry boarded the ships. The fleet was captured intact, without casualties.



That capture ended the war. It's one of the very few examples in history of cavalry capturing a fleet.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1




    I learned that story at my father's knee - well done!
    – Pieter Geerkens
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    @PieterGeerkens I think this is the only example in history of general Winter actually being present in the flesh on a battlefield.
    – Jos
    1 hour ago












  • I think the Gates of Moscow in 1940-1 is another clear example. That winter was much harsher than usual.
    – Pieter Geerkens
    1 hour ago










  • @PieterGeerkens Oh. Was there a general (de) Winter present? I meant literally, not figuratively. The chap capturing that fleet was named de Winter.
    – Jos
    1 hour ago




















up vote
0
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The question specifically mentioned that the unmotivated troops dont count. So Cowpens is out.



There really arent any examples; in order to do an encirclement you need some kind of other advantage. Encirclement is the result of winning, not the other way around. Its inconceivable that with two equal forces one could encircle the other.





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    3 Answers
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    3 Answers
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    up vote
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    down vote













    The Battle of Cowpens where 300 British cavalry (250 of the British Legion plus 50 of the 17th Light Dragoons) outnumbered American Cavalry of only ~180 men and horses ("82 Continental light dragoons; 55 state dragoons; 45 militia dragoons") by almost 2:1.



    Total forces for both sides were about 1,150 British against about 1,900 (most poorly trained and disciplined militia) Americans.




    Caught in a clever double envelopment that has been compared with the Battle of Cannae in ancient times, many of the British surrendered.




    AN interesting note - in both this battle and Cannae, Morgan and Hannibal leverage the very weakness of their main battle line into a tactical advantage that sets up the double envelopment.



    enter image description here






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1




      Do Dragoons really count as cavalry??!!?!one. ducks and hides
      – Samuel Russell
      48 mins ago








    • 1




      @SamuelRussell: Emmanuel Grouchy's dragoons were always competent cavalry. Prior to the 1840's I doubt a British dragoon, light or heavy, could have distinguished a carbine from a pistol.
      – Pieter Geerkens
      35 mins ago

















    up vote
    2
    down vote













    The Battle of Cowpens where 300 British cavalry (250 of the British Legion plus 50 of the 17th Light Dragoons) outnumbered American Cavalry of only ~180 men and horses ("82 Continental light dragoons; 55 state dragoons; 45 militia dragoons") by almost 2:1.



    Total forces for both sides were about 1,150 British against about 1,900 (most poorly trained and disciplined militia) Americans.




    Caught in a clever double envelopment that has been compared with the Battle of Cannae in ancient times, many of the British surrendered.




    AN interesting note - in both this battle and Cannae, Morgan and Hannibal leverage the very weakness of their main battle line into a tactical advantage that sets up the double envelopment.



    enter image description here






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1




      Do Dragoons really count as cavalry??!!?!one. ducks and hides
      – Samuel Russell
      48 mins ago








    • 1




      @SamuelRussell: Emmanuel Grouchy's dragoons were always competent cavalry. Prior to the 1840's I doubt a British dragoon, light or heavy, could have distinguished a carbine from a pistol.
      – Pieter Geerkens
      35 mins ago















    up vote
    2
    down vote










    up vote
    2
    down vote









    The Battle of Cowpens where 300 British cavalry (250 of the British Legion plus 50 of the 17th Light Dragoons) outnumbered American Cavalry of only ~180 men and horses ("82 Continental light dragoons; 55 state dragoons; 45 militia dragoons") by almost 2:1.



    Total forces for both sides were about 1,150 British against about 1,900 (most poorly trained and disciplined militia) Americans.




    Caught in a clever double envelopment that has been compared with the Battle of Cannae in ancient times, many of the British surrendered.




    AN interesting note - in both this battle and Cannae, Morgan and Hannibal leverage the very weakness of their main battle line into a tactical advantage that sets up the double envelopment.



    enter image description here






    share|improve this answer














    The Battle of Cowpens where 300 British cavalry (250 of the British Legion plus 50 of the 17th Light Dragoons) outnumbered American Cavalry of only ~180 men and horses ("82 Continental light dragoons; 55 state dragoons; 45 militia dragoons") by almost 2:1.



    Total forces for both sides were about 1,150 British against about 1,900 (most poorly trained and disciplined militia) Americans.




    Caught in a clever double envelopment that has been compared with the Battle of Cannae in ancient times, many of the British surrendered.




    AN interesting note - in both this battle and Cannae, Morgan and Hannibal leverage the very weakness of their main battle line into a tactical advantage that sets up the double envelopment.



    enter image description here







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 3 hours ago

























    answered 4 hours ago









    Pieter Geerkens

    38k6110182




    38k6110182








    • 1




      Do Dragoons really count as cavalry??!!?!one. ducks and hides
      – Samuel Russell
      48 mins ago








    • 1




      @SamuelRussell: Emmanuel Grouchy's dragoons were always competent cavalry. Prior to the 1840's I doubt a British dragoon, light or heavy, could have distinguished a carbine from a pistol.
      – Pieter Geerkens
      35 mins ago
















    • 1




      Do Dragoons really count as cavalry??!!?!one. ducks and hides
      – Samuel Russell
      48 mins ago








    • 1




      @SamuelRussell: Emmanuel Grouchy's dragoons were always competent cavalry. Prior to the 1840's I doubt a British dragoon, light or heavy, could have distinguished a carbine from a pistol.
      – Pieter Geerkens
      35 mins ago










    1




    1




    Do Dragoons really count as cavalry??!!?!one. ducks and hides
    – Samuel Russell
    48 mins ago






    Do Dragoons really count as cavalry??!!?!one. ducks and hides
    – Samuel Russell
    48 mins ago






    1




    1




    @SamuelRussell: Emmanuel Grouchy's dragoons were always competent cavalry. Prior to the 1840's I doubt a British dragoon, light or heavy, could have distinguished a carbine from a pistol.
    – Pieter Geerkens
    35 mins ago






    @SamuelRussell: Emmanuel Grouchy's dragoons were always competent cavalry. Prior to the 1840's I doubt a British dragoon, light or heavy, could have distinguished a carbine from a pistol.
    – Pieter Geerkens
    35 mins ago












    up vote
    2
    down vote













    I'm not sure if this counts as a valid answer, but ships of the line are always superior to cavalry. Or, in this case: nearly always.



    In 1793 the Dutch fleet was frozen at anchor, moored close to Den Helder, near the island of Texel. That winter was quite severe, even the Rhine river froze over. The Dutch republic was at war with the French republic - and losing. A French cavalry unit captured the fleet intact.



    General Pichechru (in Dutch he's known as Pietje Cru) knew the ships were iced in. He ordered the very appropriate named general Jan Willem de Winter to capture the fleet intact. He used hussars and infantry, carried on the backs of the horses. The hooves were covered with fabric to muffle the sound. The hussars rode up to the ships, quietly, and the infantry boarded the ships. The fleet was captured intact, without casualties.



    That capture ended the war. It's one of the very few examples in history of cavalry capturing a fleet.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1




      I learned that story at my father's knee - well done!
      – Pieter Geerkens
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      @PieterGeerkens I think this is the only example in history of general Winter actually being present in the flesh on a battlefield.
      – Jos
      1 hour ago












    • I think the Gates of Moscow in 1940-1 is another clear example. That winter was much harsher than usual.
      – Pieter Geerkens
      1 hour ago










    • @PieterGeerkens Oh. Was there a general (de) Winter present? I meant literally, not figuratively. The chap capturing that fleet was named de Winter.
      – Jos
      1 hour ago

















    up vote
    2
    down vote













    I'm not sure if this counts as a valid answer, but ships of the line are always superior to cavalry. Or, in this case: nearly always.



    In 1793 the Dutch fleet was frozen at anchor, moored close to Den Helder, near the island of Texel. That winter was quite severe, even the Rhine river froze over. The Dutch republic was at war with the French republic - and losing. A French cavalry unit captured the fleet intact.



    General Pichechru (in Dutch he's known as Pietje Cru) knew the ships were iced in. He ordered the very appropriate named general Jan Willem de Winter to capture the fleet intact. He used hussars and infantry, carried on the backs of the horses. The hooves were covered with fabric to muffle the sound. The hussars rode up to the ships, quietly, and the infantry boarded the ships. The fleet was captured intact, without casualties.



    That capture ended the war. It's one of the very few examples in history of cavalry capturing a fleet.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1




      I learned that story at my father's knee - well done!
      – Pieter Geerkens
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      @PieterGeerkens I think this is the only example in history of general Winter actually being present in the flesh on a battlefield.
      – Jos
      1 hour ago












    • I think the Gates of Moscow in 1940-1 is another clear example. That winter was much harsher than usual.
      – Pieter Geerkens
      1 hour ago










    • @PieterGeerkens Oh. Was there a general (de) Winter present? I meant literally, not figuratively. The chap capturing that fleet was named de Winter.
      – Jos
      1 hour ago















    up vote
    2
    down vote










    up vote
    2
    down vote









    I'm not sure if this counts as a valid answer, but ships of the line are always superior to cavalry. Or, in this case: nearly always.



    In 1793 the Dutch fleet was frozen at anchor, moored close to Den Helder, near the island of Texel. That winter was quite severe, even the Rhine river froze over. The Dutch republic was at war with the French republic - and losing. A French cavalry unit captured the fleet intact.



    General Pichechru (in Dutch he's known as Pietje Cru) knew the ships were iced in. He ordered the very appropriate named general Jan Willem de Winter to capture the fleet intact. He used hussars and infantry, carried on the backs of the horses. The hooves were covered with fabric to muffle the sound. The hussars rode up to the ships, quietly, and the infantry boarded the ships. The fleet was captured intact, without casualties.



    That capture ended the war. It's one of the very few examples in history of cavalry capturing a fleet.






    share|improve this answer














    I'm not sure if this counts as a valid answer, but ships of the line are always superior to cavalry. Or, in this case: nearly always.



    In 1793 the Dutch fleet was frozen at anchor, moored close to Den Helder, near the island of Texel. That winter was quite severe, even the Rhine river froze over. The Dutch republic was at war with the French republic - and losing. A French cavalry unit captured the fleet intact.



    General Pichechru (in Dutch he's known as Pietje Cru) knew the ships were iced in. He ordered the very appropriate named general Jan Willem de Winter to capture the fleet intact. He used hussars and infantry, carried on the backs of the horses. The hooves were covered with fabric to muffle the sound. The hussars rode up to the ships, quietly, and the infantry boarded the ships. The fleet was captured intact, without casualties.



    That capture ended the war. It's one of the very few examples in history of cavalry capturing a fleet.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 34 mins ago

























    answered 1 hour ago









    Jos

    8,01311842




    8,01311842








    • 1




      I learned that story at my father's knee - well done!
      – Pieter Geerkens
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      @PieterGeerkens I think this is the only example in history of general Winter actually being present in the flesh on a battlefield.
      – Jos
      1 hour ago












    • I think the Gates of Moscow in 1940-1 is another clear example. That winter was much harsher than usual.
      – Pieter Geerkens
      1 hour ago










    • @PieterGeerkens Oh. Was there a general (de) Winter present? I meant literally, not figuratively. The chap capturing that fleet was named de Winter.
      – Jos
      1 hour ago
















    • 1




      I learned that story at my father's knee - well done!
      – Pieter Geerkens
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      @PieterGeerkens I think this is the only example in history of general Winter actually being present in the flesh on a battlefield.
      – Jos
      1 hour ago












    • I think the Gates of Moscow in 1940-1 is another clear example. That winter was much harsher than usual.
      – Pieter Geerkens
      1 hour ago










    • @PieterGeerkens Oh. Was there a general (de) Winter present? I meant literally, not figuratively. The chap capturing that fleet was named de Winter.
      – Jos
      1 hour ago










    1




    1




    I learned that story at my father's knee - well done!
    – Pieter Geerkens
    1 hour ago




    I learned that story at my father's knee - well done!
    – Pieter Geerkens
    1 hour ago




    1




    1




    @PieterGeerkens I think this is the only example in history of general Winter actually being present in the flesh on a battlefield.
    – Jos
    1 hour ago






    @PieterGeerkens I think this is the only example in history of general Winter actually being present in the flesh on a battlefield.
    – Jos
    1 hour ago














    I think the Gates of Moscow in 1940-1 is another clear example. That winter was much harsher than usual.
    – Pieter Geerkens
    1 hour ago




    I think the Gates of Moscow in 1940-1 is another clear example. That winter was much harsher than usual.
    – Pieter Geerkens
    1 hour ago












    @PieterGeerkens Oh. Was there a general (de) Winter present? I meant literally, not figuratively. The chap capturing that fleet was named de Winter.
    – Jos
    1 hour ago






    @PieterGeerkens Oh. Was there a general (de) Winter present? I meant literally, not figuratively. The chap capturing that fleet was named de Winter.
    – Jos
    1 hour ago












    up vote
    0
    down vote













    The question specifically mentioned that the unmotivated troops dont count. So Cowpens is out.



    There really arent any examples; in order to do an encirclement you need some kind of other advantage. Encirclement is the result of winning, not the other way around. Its inconceivable that with two equal forces one could encircle the other.





    share








    New contributor




    user34843 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      up vote
      0
      down vote













      The question specifically mentioned that the unmotivated troops dont count. So Cowpens is out.



      There really arent any examples; in order to do an encirclement you need some kind of other advantage. Encirclement is the result of winning, not the other way around. Its inconceivable that with two equal forces one could encircle the other.





      share








      New contributor




      user34843 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.




















        up vote
        0
        down vote










        up vote
        0
        down vote









        The question specifically mentioned that the unmotivated troops dont count. So Cowpens is out.



        There really arent any examples; in order to do an encirclement you need some kind of other advantage. Encirclement is the result of winning, not the other way around. Its inconceivable that with two equal forces one could encircle the other.





        share








        New contributor




        user34843 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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        The question specifically mentioned that the unmotivated troops dont count. So Cowpens is out.



        There really arent any examples; in order to do an encirclement you need some kind of other advantage. Encirclement is the result of winning, not the other way around. Its inconceivable that with two equal forces one could encircle the other.






        share








        New contributor




        user34843 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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        share


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        answered 4 mins ago









        user34843

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