Why are $C^infty_pneq C^infty_q$ when $pneq q$?
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Let $C^infty_p(M)$ be the set of all germs at point $p in M$.
A germ at point $x$ is $[f]_x={gin C^{infty}(mathcal{U}_x):exists_{mathcal{O_x}subsetmathcal{U}_x} g_{|_mathcal{O_x}}=f}$, where $mathcal{U}_x$ and $mathcal{O_x}$ are open neighbourhoods of $x$, in $M$.
Why do we always have $C^infty_pneq C^infty_q$ when $pneq q$?
I need to understand this in order to understand how the tangent spaces 'as the' set of derivations are always disjoint for different points.
differential-geometry differential-topology
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add a comment |
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Let $C^infty_p(M)$ be the set of all germs at point $p in M$.
A germ at point $x$ is $[f]_x={gin C^{infty}(mathcal{U}_x):exists_{mathcal{O_x}subsetmathcal{U}_x} g_{|_mathcal{O_x}}=f}$, where $mathcal{U}_x$ and $mathcal{O_x}$ are open neighbourhoods of $x$, in $M$.
Why do we always have $C^infty_pneq C^infty_q$ when $pneq q$?
I need to understand this in order to understand how the tangent spaces 'as the' set of derivations are always disjoint for different points.
differential-geometry differential-topology
$endgroup$
1
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They are isomorphic to one another, of course, but there are many different isomorphisms. Hence, given $fin C^infty_p$ and $gin C^infty_q$, there is no way to determine whether $f=g$ or not.
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– Amitai Yuval
Nov 3 '18 at 13:14
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@AmitaiYuval Thanks for your comment. So, you're saying that whenever there are 2 or more different isomorphisms, since there is no way to determine whether g=f, we just say that both sets are different?
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– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $C^infty_p(M)$ be the set of all germs at point $p in M$.
A germ at point $x$ is $[f]_x={gin C^{infty}(mathcal{U}_x):exists_{mathcal{O_x}subsetmathcal{U}_x} g_{|_mathcal{O_x}}=f}$, where $mathcal{U}_x$ and $mathcal{O_x}$ are open neighbourhoods of $x$, in $M$.
Why do we always have $C^infty_pneq C^infty_q$ when $pneq q$?
I need to understand this in order to understand how the tangent spaces 'as the' set of derivations are always disjoint for different points.
differential-geometry differential-topology
$endgroup$
Let $C^infty_p(M)$ be the set of all germs at point $p in M$.
A germ at point $x$ is $[f]_x={gin C^{infty}(mathcal{U}_x):exists_{mathcal{O_x}subsetmathcal{U}_x} g_{|_mathcal{O_x}}=f}$, where $mathcal{U}_x$ and $mathcal{O_x}$ are open neighbourhoods of $x$, in $M$.
Why do we always have $C^infty_pneq C^infty_q$ when $pneq q$?
I need to understand this in order to understand how the tangent spaces 'as the' set of derivations are always disjoint for different points.
differential-geometry differential-topology
differential-geometry differential-topology
edited Feb 3 at 13:01
An old man in the sea.
asked Nov 3 '18 at 13:06
An old man in the sea.An old man in the sea.
1,64511134
1,64511134
1
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They are isomorphic to one another, of course, but there are many different isomorphisms. Hence, given $fin C^infty_p$ and $gin C^infty_q$, there is no way to determine whether $f=g$ or not.
$endgroup$
– Amitai Yuval
Nov 3 '18 at 13:14
$begingroup$
@AmitaiYuval Thanks for your comment. So, you're saying that whenever there are 2 or more different isomorphisms, since there is no way to determine whether g=f, we just say that both sets are different?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:42
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
They are isomorphic to one another, of course, but there are many different isomorphisms. Hence, given $fin C^infty_p$ and $gin C^infty_q$, there is no way to determine whether $f=g$ or not.
$endgroup$
– Amitai Yuval
Nov 3 '18 at 13:14
$begingroup$
@AmitaiYuval Thanks for your comment. So, you're saying that whenever there are 2 or more different isomorphisms, since there is no way to determine whether g=f, we just say that both sets are different?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:42
1
1
$begingroup$
They are isomorphic to one another, of course, but there are many different isomorphisms. Hence, given $fin C^infty_p$ and $gin C^infty_q$, there is no way to determine whether $f=g$ or not.
$endgroup$
– Amitai Yuval
Nov 3 '18 at 13:14
$begingroup$
They are isomorphic to one another, of course, but there are many different isomorphisms. Hence, given $fin C^infty_p$ and $gin C^infty_q$, there is no way to determine whether $f=g$ or not.
$endgroup$
– Amitai Yuval
Nov 3 '18 at 13:14
$begingroup$
@AmitaiYuval Thanks for your comment. So, you're saying that whenever there are 2 or more different isomorphisms, since there is no way to determine whether g=f, we just say that both sets are different?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:42
$begingroup$
@AmitaiYuval Thanks for your comment. So, you're saying that whenever there are 2 or more different isomorphisms, since there is no way to determine whether g=f, we just say that both sets are different?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:42
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
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oldest
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A smooth germ at $p$ is an equivalence class of pairs $(U,f)$ consisting of an open neighbourhood $U$ of $p$ and a smooth function $f$ on $U$, modulo the equivalence relation that $(U,f) sim (V,g)$ if there is an open neighbourhood $W$ of $p$, $W subset U cap V$, such that $f|_W = g|_W$. We denote the collection of all smooth germs at $p$ by $C_p^infty$.
If $p neq q$, no germ at $q$ can belong to the set of germs at $p$. For, suppose $f in C_q^infty cap C_p^infty$. Let $(U_1,g_1)$ be a representative of the equivalence class of $f$ in $C_p^infty$, and let $(U_2,g_2)$ be a representative of the equivalence class of $f$ in $C_q^infty$. We can always choose the open neighbourhoods $U_1$ and $U_2$ (of $p$ and $q$, respectively) in such a manner that $U_1 cap U_2 = emptyset$, since $Bbb{R}^n$ is Hausdorff.
Now, since $g_1$ and $g_2$ are both representatives of $f$, it must be that they agree on an open set $V subset U_1 cap U_2$, where $V$ is an open neighbourhood of both $p$ and $q$. But, this is not possible since $U_1 cap U_2 = emptyset$.
Hence, $C_p^infty$ and $C_q^infty$ are completely distinct when $p neq q$.
Edit (based on comments for further clarification):
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
Brahadeesh, I've added the definition I'm using of germ. With that definition, I fail to see how we can guarantee the existence of such a V.
The same (or similar) reasoning goes through with the definition of germ that you updated in the question details. Suppose $[f_x]=[f_y]$ for some $x neq y$, as per your definition. Then, they have the same set of representatives. Let $U_x$ and $U_y$ be disjoint open neighbourhoods of $x$ and $y$, respectively. Choose $g in C^infty(U_x)$ to be a representative of $[f_x]$, so that there exists $O_x subset U_x$ with $g|_{O_x} = f$. Since $[f_x]=[f_y]$, $g$ is also a representative of $[f_y]$, which is absurd.
At this point, it depends on what you want to say: it is absurd because $y notin U_x$ itself, so you are done. But if it’s not immediately clear with this, you could proceed a little bit ahead with the absurdity and observe it happen at another point, as I did previously in my answer. So, let $h in C^infty(U_y)$ be a representative of $[f_y]$. Since $[f_x]=[f_y]$, we now have two representatives of $[f_x]$. Hence there is a third representative $k in C^infty(U)$ of $[f_x]$ such that $U subset U_x cap U_y$. But this is absurd because $U_x cap U_y = emptyset$.
Also, if your reasoning was correct, then how come, in Arthur's answer, we can find a common function at germs in different points?
A germ at a point is not just a smooth function with (some conditions), it is an equivalence class of pairs of smooth functions and neighbourhoods of that point satisfying (some conditions). Arthur does not say in his answer that we can find a common germ, so there is no contradiction.
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You meant $W ni p$ ? Otherwise I don't see what you mean. If you meant $p in W$ then (thanks to $C^infty_c$) we can find a smooth function agreeing with $f$ around $p$ but disagreeing with $g$ at $q$, even if $f,g$ agree on $mathbb{R}^n$. Thus for analytic functions we have a different situation.
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– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:28
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@reuns I don't follow. What is $W$? And how do compactly supported functions come into the picture?
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– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:40
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Without asking that a fixed $p in W$ then it is not an equivalence relation (not transitive) : we can find $f$ agreeing with $g$ somewhere and with $h$ elsewhere but $g$ doesn't agree with $h$ anywhere
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– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:46
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@reuns I still don't follow. Neither the OP nor I have used the notation $W$, so I'm not sure what you mean. And you said "(thanks to $C_c^infty$)" in your previous comment, which I also do not follow.
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– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:53
1
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I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
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– An old man in the sea.
Feb 2 at 17:58
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They are isomorphic as $Bbb R$ vector spaces (or algebras, for that matter), but completely distinct. They are both partitions of $C^infty(Bbb R)$ into equivalence classes (or something closely analogous, depending on your exact definition of "germ"), but those two partitions have little to do with one another.
For instance, given any two germs $alphain C^infty_p(Bbb R^n)$ and $betain C^infty_q(Bbb R^n)$, there is an $fin C^infty(Bbb R^n)$ which is contained in both $alpha$ and $beta$.
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Arthur, thanks for your answer. However, I'm not seeing how from the existence of a 'thinner' partition, we conclude both are very distinct...
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– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:45
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@Anopdmaninthesea. What "thinner partition"? I'm just giving an example of how independent the two partitions are of one another.
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– Arthur
Nov 3 '18 at 15:18
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Arthur, can you give me an example of an element/germ in set, but not the other?
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– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 12:58
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@Anoldmaninthesea The two sets have no elements at all in common. Every single element / germ in one is not in the other.
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– Arthur
Feb 3 at 13:06
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Ahhh, so, in any germ at point $p$, we can find an $f$ which is $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $p$, but it's not $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $q$, or it may not even be defined $q$. Or even if define in a way that all the previous are satisfied, we still have $[f_1]_p=[f_2]_p$ but $[f_1]_qneq [f_2]_q$,. Ex: $f_1=f_2=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$, but $f_1=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$ and $f_2=x^2-q^2$ at $mathcal{O_q}$. Correct?
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– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 13:25
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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$begingroup$
A smooth germ at $p$ is an equivalence class of pairs $(U,f)$ consisting of an open neighbourhood $U$ of $p$ and a smooth function $f$ on $U$, modulo the equivalence relation that $(U,f) sim (V,g)$ if there is an open neighbourhood $W$ of $p$, $W subset U cap V$, such that $f|_W = g|_W$. We denote the collection of all smooth germs at $p$ by $C_p^infty$.
If $p neq q$, no germ at $q$ can belong to the set of germs at $p$. For, suppose $f in C_q^infty cap C_p^infty$. Let $(U_1,g_1)$ be a representative of the equivalence class of $f$ in $C_p^infty$, and let $(U_2,g_2)$ be a representative of the equivalence class of $f$ in $C_q^infty$. We can always choose the open neighbourhoods $U_1$ and $U_2$ (of $p$ and $q$, respectively) in such a manner that $U_1 cap U_2 = emptyset$, since $Bbb{R}^n$ is Hausdorff.
Now, since $g_1$ and $g_2$ are both representatives of $f$, it must be that they agree on an open set $V subset U_1 cap U_2$, where $V$ is an open neighbourhood of both $p$ and $q$. But, this is not possible since $U_1 cap U_2 = emptyset$.
Hence, $C_p^infty$ and $C_q^infty$ are completely distinct when $p neq q$.
Edit (based on comments for further clarification):
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
Brahadeesh, I've added the definition I'm using of germ. With that definition, I fail to see how we can guarantee the existence of such a V.
The same (or similar) reasoning goes through with the definition of germ that you updated in the question details. Suppose $[f_x]=[f_y]$ for some $x neq y$, as per your definition. Then, they have the same set of representatives. Let $U_x$ and $U_y$ be disjoint open neighbourhoods of $x$ and $y$, respectively. Choose $g in C^infty(U_x)$ to be a representative of $[f_x]$, so that there exists $O_x subset U_x$ with $g|_{O_x} = f$. Since $[f_x]=[f_y]$, $g$ is also a representative of $[f_y]$, which is absurd.
At this point, it depends on what you want to say: it is absurd because $y notin U_x$ itself, so you are done. But if it’s not immediately clear with this, you could proceed a little bit ahead with the absurdity and observe it happen at another point, as I did previously in my answer. So, let $h in C^infty(U_y)$ be a representative of $[f_y]$. Since $[f_x]=[f_y]$, we now have two representatives of $[f_x]$. Hence there is a third representative $k in C^infty(U)$ of $[f_x]$ such that $U subset U_x cap U_y$. But this is absurd because $U_x cap U_y = emptyset$.
Also, if your reasoning was correct, then how come, in Arthur's answer, we can find a common function at germs in different points?
A germ at a point is not just a smooth function with (some conditions), it is an equivalence class of pairs of smooth functions and neighbourhoods of that point satisfying (some conditions). Arthur does not say in his answer that we can find a common germ, so there is no contradiction.
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1
$begingroup$
You meant $W ni p$ ? Otherwise I don't see what you mean. If you meant $p in W$ then (thanks to $C^infty_c$) we can find a smooth function agreeing with $f$ around $p$ but disagreeing with $g$ at $q$, even if $f,g$ agree on $mathbb{R}^n$. Thus for analytic functions we have a different situation.
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:28
$begingroup$
@reuns I don't follow. What is $W$? And how do compactly supported functions come into the picture?
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:40
$begingroup$
Without asking that a fixed $p in W$ then it is not an equivalence relation (not transitive) : we can find $f$ agreeing with $g$ somewhere and with $h$ elsewhere but $g$ doesn't agree with $h$ anywhere
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:46
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@reuns I still don't follow. Neither the OP nor I have used the notation $W$, so I'm not sure what you mean. And you said "(thanks to $C_c^infty$)" in your previous comment, which I also do not follow.
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– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:53
1
$begingroup$
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 2 at 17:58
|
show 13 more comments
$begingroup$
A smooth germ at $p$ is an equivalence class of pairs $(U,f)$ consisting of an open neighbourhood $U$ of $p$ and a smooth function $f$ on $U$, modulo the equivalence relation that $(U,f) sim (V,g)$ if there is an open neighbourhood $W$ of $p$, $W subset U cap V$, such that $f|_W = g|_W$. We denote the collection of all smooth germs at $p$ by $C_p^infty$.
If $p neq q$, no germ at $q$ can belong to the set of germs at $p$. For, suppose $f in C_q^infty cap C_p^infty$. Let $(U_1,g_1)$ be a representative of the equivalence class of $f$ in $C_p^infty$, and let $(U_2,g_2)$ be a representative of the equivalence class of $f$ in $C_q^infty$. We can always choose the open neighbourhoods $U_1$ and $U_2$ (of $p$ and $q$, respectively) in such a manner that $U_1 cap U_2 = emptyset$, since $Bbb{R}^n$ is Hausdorff.
Now, since $g_1$ and $g_2$ are both representatives of $f$, it must be that they agree on an open set $V subset U_1 cap U_2$, where $V$ is an open neighbourhood of both $p$ and $q$. But, this is not possible since $U_1 cap U_2 = emptyset$.
Hence, $C_p^infty$ and $C_q^infty$ are completely distinct when $p neq q$.
Edit (based on comments for further clarification):
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
Brahadeesh, I've added the definition I'm using of germ. With that definition, I fail to see how we can guarantee the existence of such a V.
The same (or similar) reasoning goes through with the definition of germ that you updated in the question details. Suppose $[f_x]=[f_y]$ for some $x neq y$, as per your definition. Then, they have the same set of representatives. Let $U_x$ and $U_y$ be disjoint open neighbourhoods of $x$ and $y$, respectively. Choose $g in C^infty(U_x)$ to be a representative of $[f_x]$, so that there exists $O_x subset U_x$ with $g|_{O_x} = f$. Since $[f_x]=[f_y]$, $g$ is also a representative of $[f_y]$, which is absurd.
At this point, it depends on what you want to say: it is absurd because $y notin U_x$ itself, so you are done. But if it’s not immediately clear with this, you could proceed a little bit ahead with the absurdity and observe it happen at another point, as I did previously in my answer. So, let $h in C^infty(U_y)$ be a representative of $[f_y]$. Since $[f_x]=[f_y]$, we now have two representatives of $[f_x]$. Hence there is a third representative $k in C^infty(U)$ of $[f_x]$ such that $U subset U_x cap U_y$. But this is absurd because $U_x cap U_y = emptyset$.
Also, if your reasoning was correct, then how come, in Arthur's answer, we can find a common function at germs in different points?
A germ at a point is not just a smooth function with (some conditions), it is an equivalence class of pairs of smooth functions and neighbourhoods of that point satisfying (some conditions). Arthur does not say in his answer that we can find a common germ, so there is no contradiction.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
You meant $W ni p$ ? Otherwise I don't see what you mean. If you meant $p in W$ then (thanks to $C^infty_c$) we can find a smooth function agreeing with $f$ around $p$ but disagreeing with $g$ at $q$, even if $f,g$ agree on $mathbb{R}^n$. Thus for analytic functions we have a different situation.
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:28
$begingroup$
@reuns I don't follow. What is $W$? And how do compactly supported functions come into the picture?
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:40
$begingroup$
Without asking that a fixed $p in W$ then it is not an equivalence relation (not transitive) : we can find $f$ agreeing with $g$ somewhere and with $h$ elsewhere but $g$ doesn't agree with $h$ anywhere
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:46
$begingroup$
@reuns I still don't follow. Neither the OP nor I have used the notation $W$, so I'm not sure what you mean. And you said "(thanks to $C_c^infty$)" in your previous comment, which I also do not follow.
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:53
1
$begingroup$
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 2 at 17:58
|
show 13 more comments
$begingroup$
A smooth germ at $p$ is an equivalence class of pairs $(U,f)$ consisting of an open neighbourhood $U$ of $p$ and a smooth function $f$ on $U$, modulo the equivalence relation that $(U,f) sim (V,g)$ if there is an open neighbourhood $W$ of $p$, $W subset U cap V$, such that $f|_W = g|_W$. We denote the collection of all smooth germs at $p$ by $C_p^infty$.
If $p neq q$, no germ at $q$ can belong to the set of germs at $p$. For, suppose $f in C_q^infty cap C_p^infty$. Let $(U_1,g_1)$ be a representative of the equivalence class of $f$ in $C_p^infty$, and let $(U_2,g_2)$ be a representative of the equivalence class of $f$ in $C_q^infty$. We can always choose the open neighbourhoods $U_1$ and $U_2$ (of $p$ and $q$, respectively) in such a manner that $U_1 cap U_2 = emptyset$, since $Bbb{R}^n$ is Hausdorff.
Now, since $g_1$ and $g_2$ are both representatives of $f$, it must be that they agree on an open set $V subset U_1 cap U_2$, where $V$ is an open neighbourhood of both $p$ and $q$. But, this is not possible since $U_1 cap U_2 = emptyset$.
Hence, $C_p^infty$ and $C_q^infty$ are completely distinct when $p neq q$.
Edit (based on comments for further clarification):
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
Brahadeesh, I've added the definition I'm using of germ. With that definition, I fail to see how we can guarantee the existence of such a V.
The same (or similar) reasoning goes through with the definition of germ that you updated in the question details. Suppose $[f_x]=[f_y]$ for some $x neq y$, as per your definition. Then, they have the same set of representatives. Let $U_x$ and $U_y$ be disjoint open neighbourhoods of $x$ and $y$, respectively. Choose $g in C^infty(U_x)$ to be a representative of $[f_x]$, so that there exists $O_x subset U_x$ with $g|_{O_x} = f$. Since $[f_x]=[f_y]$, $g$ is also a representative of $[f_y]$, which is absurd.
At this point, it depends on what you want to say: it is absurd because $y notin U_x$ itself, so you are done. But if it’s not immediately clear with this, you could proceed a little bit ahead with the absurdity and observe it happen at another point, as I did previously in my answer. So, let $h in C^infty(U_y)$ be a representative of $[f_y]$. Since $[f_x]=[f_y]$, we now have two representatives of $[f_x]$. Hence there is a third representative $k in C^infty(U)$ of $[f_x]$ such that $U subset U_x cap U_y$. But this is absurd because $U_x cap U_y = emptyset$.
Also, if your reasoning was correct, then how come, in Arthur's answer, we can find a common function at germs in different points?
A germ at a point is not just a smooth function with (some conditions), it is an equivalence class of pairs of smooth functions and neighbourhoods of that point satisfying (some conditions). Arthur does not say in his answer that we can find a common germ, so there is no contradiction.
$endgroup$
A smooth germ at $p$ is an equivalence class of pairs $(U,f)$ consisting of an open neighbourhood $U$ of $p$ and a smooth function $f$ on $U$, modulo the equivalence relation that $(U,f) sim (V,g)$ if there is an open neighbourhood $W$ of $p$, $W subset U cap V$, such that $f|_W = g|_W$. We denote the collection of all smooth germs at $p$ by $C_p^infty$.
If $p neq q$, no germ at $q$ can belong to the set of germs at $p$. For, suppose $f in C_q^infty cap C_p^infty$. Let $(U_1,g_1)$ be a representative of the equivalence class of $f$ in $C_p^infty$, and let $(U_2,g_2)$ be a representative of the equivalence class of $f$ in $C_q^infty$. We can always choose the open neighbourhoods $U_1$ and $U_2$ (of $p$ and $q$, respectively) in such a manner that $U_1 cap U_2 = emptyset$, since $Bbb{R}^n$ is Hausdorff.
Now, since $g_1$ and $g_2$ are both representatives of $f$, it must be that they agree on an open set $V subset U_1 cap U_2$, where $V$ is an open neighbourhood of both $p$ and $q$. But, this is not possible since $U_1 cap U_2 = emptyset$.
Hence, $C_p^infty$ and $C_q^infty$ are completely distinct when $p neq q$.
Edit (based on comments for further clarification):
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
Brahadeesh, I've added the definition I'm using of germ. With that definition, I fail to see how we can guarantee the existence of such a V.
The same (or similar) reasoning goes through with the definition of germ that you updated in the question details. Suppose $[f_x]=[f_y]$ for some $x neq y$, as per your definition. Then, they have the same set of representatives. Let $U_x$ and $U_y$ be disjoint open neighbourhoods of $x$ and $y$, respectively. Choose $g in C^infty(U_x)$ to be a representative of $[f_x]$, so that there exists $O_x subset U_x$ with $g|_{O_x} = f$. Since $[f_x]=[f_y]$, $g$ is also a representative of $[f_y]$, which is absurd.
At this point, it depends on what you want to say: it is absurd because $y notin U_x$ itself, so you are done. But if it’s not immediately clear with this, you could proceed a little bit ahead with the absurdity and observe it happen at another point, as I did previously in my answer. So, let $h in C^infty(U_y)$ be a representative of $[f_y]$. Since $[f_x]=[f_y]$, we now have two representatives of $[f_x]$. Hence there is a third representative $k in C^infty(U)$ of $[f_x]$ such that $U subset U_x cap U_y$. But this is absurd because $U_x cap U_y = emptyset$.
Also, if your reasoning was correct, then how come, in Arthur's answer, we can find a common function at germs in different points?
A germ at a point is not just a smooth function with (some conditions), it is an equivalence class of pairs of smooth functions and neighbourhoods of that point satisfying (some conditions). Arthur does not say in his answer that we can find a common germ, so there is no contradiction.
edited Feb 5 at 8:12
answered Dec 9 '18 at 4:28
BrahadeeshBrahadeesh
6,35442363
6,35442363
1
$begingroup$
You meant $W ni p$ ? Otherwise I don't see what you mean. If you meant $p in W$ then (thanks to $C^infty_c$) we can find a smooth function agreeing with $f$ around $p$ but disagreeing with $g$ at $q$, even if $f,g$ agree on $mathbb{R}^n$. Thus for analytic functions we have a different situation.
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:28
$begingroup$
@reuns I don't follow. What is $W$? And how do compactly supported functions come into the picture?
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:40
$begingroup$
Without asking that a fixed $p in W$ then it is not an equivalence relation (not transitive) : we can find $f$ agreeing with $g$ somewhere and with $h$ elsewhere but $g$ doesn't agree with $h$ anywhere
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:46
$begingroup$
@reuns I still don't follow. Neither the OP nor I have used the notation $W$, so I'm not sure what you mean. And you said "(thanks to $C_c^infty$)" in your previous comment, which I also do not follow.
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:53
1
$begingroup$
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 2 at 17:58
|
show 13 more comments
1
$begingroup$
You meant $W ni p$ ? Otherwise I don't see what you mean. If you meant $p in W$ then (thanks to $C^infty_c$) we can find a smooth function agreeing with $f$ around $p$ but disagreeing with $g$ at $q$, even if $f,g$ agree on $mathbb{R}^n$. Thus for analytic functions we have a different situation.
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:28
$begingroup$
@reuns I don't follow. What is $W$? And how do compactly supported functions come into the picture?
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:40
$begingroup$
Without asking that a fixed $p in W$ then it is not an equivalence relation (not transitive) : we can find $f$ agreeing with $g$ somewhere and with $h$ elsewhere but $g$ doesn't agree with $h$ anywhere
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:46
$begingroup$
@reuns I still don't follow. Neither the OP nor I have used the notation $W$, so I'm not sure what you mean. And you said "(thanks to $C_c^infty$)" in your previous comment, which I also do not follow.
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:53
1
$begingroup$
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 2 at 17:58
1
1
$begingroup$
You meant $W ni p$ ? Otherwise I don't see what you mean. If you meant $p in W$ then (thanks to $C^infty_c$) we can find a smooth function agreeing with $f$ around $p$ but disagreeing with $g$ at $q$, even if $f,g$ agree on $mathbb{R}^n$. Thus for analytic functions we have a different situation.
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:28
$begingroup$
You meant $W ni p$ ? Otherwise I don't see what you mean. If you meant $p in W$ then (thanks to $C^infty_c$) we can find a smooth function agreeing with $f$ around $p$ but disagreeing with $g$ at $q$, even if $f,g$ agree on $mathbb{R}^n$. Thus for analytic functions we have a different situation.
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:28
$begingroup$
@reuns I don't follow. What is $W$? And how do compactly supported functions come into the picture?
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:40
$begingroup$
@reuns I don't follow. What is $W$? And how do compactly supported functions come into the picture?
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:40
$begingroup$
Without asking that a fixed $p in W$ then it is not an equivalence relation (not transitive) : we can find $f$ agreeing with $g$ somewhere and with $h$ elsewhere but $g$ doesn't agree with $h$ anywhere
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:46
$begingroup$
Without asking that a fixed $p in W$ then it is not an equivalence relation (not transitive) : we can find $f$ agreeing with $g$ somewhere and with $h$ elsewhere but $g$ doesn't agree with $h$ anywhere
$endgroup$
– reuns
Dec 9 '18 at 5:46
$begingroup$
@reuns I still don't follow. Neither the OP nor I have used the notation $W$, so I'm not sure what you mean. And you said "(thanks to $C_c^infty$)" in your previous comment, which I also do not follow.
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:53
$begingroup$
@reuns I still don't follow. Neither the OP nor I have used the notation $W$, so I'm not sure what you mean. And you said "(thanks to $C_c^infty$)" in your previous comment, which I also do not follow.
$endgroup$
– Brahadeesh
Dec 9 '18 at 5:53
1
1
$begingroup$
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 2 at 17:58
$begingroup$
I was rereading your answer, and I have a doubt. In the 2nd paragraph, why is there such a $V$? The representatives of f are representatives, but at different points... ;)
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 2 at 17:58
|
show 13 more comments
$begingroup$
They are isomorphic as $Bbb R$ vector spaces (or algebras, for that matter), but completely distinct. They are both partitions of $C^infty(Bbb R)$ into equivalence classes (or something closely analogous, depending on your exact definition of "germ"), but those two partitions have little to do with one another.
For instance, given any two germs $alphain C^infty_p(Bbb R^n)$ and $betain C^infty_q(Bbb R^n)$, there is an $fin C^infty(Bbb R^n)$ which is contained in both $alpha$ and $beta$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Arthur, thanks for your answer. However, I'm not seeing how from the existence of a 'thinner' partition, we conclude both are very distinct...
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:45
$begingroup$
@Anopdmaninthesea. What "thinner partition"? I'm just giving an example of how independent the two partitions are of one another.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Nov 3 '18 at 15:18
$begingroup$
Arthur, can you give me an example of an element/germ in set, but not the other?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 12:58
$begingroup$
@Anoldmaninthesea The two sets have no elements at all in common. Every single element / germ in one is not in the other.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Feb 3 at 13:06
$begingroup$
Ahhh, so, in any germ at point $p$, we can find an $f$ which is $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $p$, but it's not $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $q$, or it may not even be defined $q$. Or even if define in a way that all the previous are satisfied, we still have $[f_1]_p=[f_2]_p$ but $[f_1]_qneq [f_2]_q$,. Ex: $f_1=f_2=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$, but $f_1=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$ and $f_2=x^2-q^2$ at $mathcal{O_q}$. Correct?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 13:25
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
They are isomorphic as $Bbb R$ vector spaces (or algebras, for that matter), but completely distinct. They are both partitions of $C^infty(Bbb R)$ into equivalence classes (or something closely analogous, depending on your exact definition of "germ"), but those two partitions have little to do with one another.
For instance, given any two germs $alphain C^infty_p(Bbb R^n)$ and $betain C^infty_q(Bbb R^n)$, there is an $fin C^infty(Bbb R^n)$ which is contained in both $alpha$ and $beta$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Arthur, thanks for your answer. However, I'm not seeing how from the existence of a 'thinner' partition, we conclude both are very distinct...
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:45
$begingroup$
@Anopdmaninthesea. What "thinner partition"? I'm just giving an example of how independent the two partitions are of one another.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Nov 3 '18 at 15:18
$begingroup$
Arthur, can you give me an example of an element/germ in set, but not the other?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 12:58
$begingroup$
@Anoldmaninthesea The two sets have no elements at all in common. Every single element / germ in one is not in the other.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Feb 3 at 13:06
$begingroup$
Ahhh, so, in any germ at point $p$, we can find an $f$ which is $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $p$, but it's not $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $q$, or it may not even be defined $q$. Or even if define in a way that all the previous are satisfied, we still have $[f_1]_p=[f_2]_p$ but $[f_1]_qneq [f_2]_q$,. Ex: $f_1=f_2=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$, but $f_1=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$ and $f_2=x^2-q^2$ at $mathcal{O_q}$. Correct?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 13:25
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
They are isomorphic as $Bbb R$ vector spaces (or algebras, for that matter), but completely distinct. They are both partitions of $C^infty(Bbb R)$ into equivalence classes (or something closely analogous, depending on your exact definition of "germ"), but those two partitions have little to do with one another.
For instance, given any two germs $alphain C^infty_p(Bbb R^n)$ and $betain C^infty_q(Bbb R^n)$, there is an $fin C^infty(Bbb R^n)$ which is contained in both $alpha$ and $beta$.
$endgroup$
They are isomorphic as $Bbb R$ vector spaces (or algebras, for that matter), but completely distinct. They are both partitions of $C^infty(Bbb R)$ into equivalence classes (or something closely analogous, depending on your exact definition of "germ"), but those two partitions have little to do with one another.
For instance, given any two germs $alphain C^infty_p(Bbb R^n)$ and $betain C^infty_q(Bbb R^n)$, there is an $fin C^infty(Bbb R^n)$ which is contained in both $alpha$ and $beta$.
edited Nov 3 '18 at 13:27
answered Nov 3 '18 at 13:16
ArthurArthur
115k7116198
115k7116198
$begingroup$
Arthur, thanks for your answer. However, I'm not seeing how from the existence of a 'thinner' partition, we conclude both are very distinct...
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:45
$begingroup$
@Anopdmaninthesea. What "thinner partition"? I'm just giving an example of how independent the two partitions are of one another.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Nov 3 '18 at 15:18
$begingroup$
Arthur, can you give me an example of an element/germ in set, but not the other?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 12:58
$begingroup$
@Anoldmaninthesea The two sets have no elements at all in common. Every single element / germ in one is not in the other.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Feb 3 at 13:06
$begingroup$
Ahhh, so, in any germ at point $p$, we can find an $f$ which is $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $p$, but it's not $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $q$, or it may not even be defined $q$. Or even if define in a way that all the previous are satisfied, we still have $[f_1]_p=[f_2]_p$ but $[f_1]_qneq [f_2]_q$,. Ex: $f_1=f_2=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$, but $f_1=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$ and $f_2=x^2-q^2$ at $mathcal{O_q}$. Correct?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 13:25
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Arthur, thanks for your answer. However, I'm not seeing how from the existence of a 'thinner' partition, we conclude both are very distinct...
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:45
$begingroup$
@Anopdmaninthesea. What "thinner partition"? I'm just giving an example of how independent the two partitions are of one another.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Nov 3 '18 at 15:18
$begingroup$
Arthur, can you give me an example of an element/germ in set, but not the other?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 12:58
$begingroup$
@Anoldmaninthesea The two sets have no elements at all in common. Every single element / germ in one is not in the other.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Feb 3 at 13:06
$begingroup$
Ahhh, so, in any germ at point $p$, we can find an $f$ which is $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $p$, but it's not $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $q$, or it may not even be defined $q$. Or even if define in a way that all the previous are satisfied, we still have $[f_1]_p=[f_2]_p$ but $[f_1]_qneq [f_2]_q$,. Ex: $f_1=f_2=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$, but $f_1=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$ and $f_2=x^2-q^2$ at $mathcal{O_q}$. Correct?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 13:25
$begingroup$
Arthur, thanks for your answer. However, I'm not seeing how from the existence of a 'thinner' partition, we conclude both are very distinct...
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:45
$begingroup$
Arthur, thanks for your answer. However, I'm not seeing how from the existence of a 'thinner' partition, we conclude both are very distinct...
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:45
$begingroup$
@Anopdmaninthesea. What "thinner partition"? I'm just giving an example of how independent the two partitions are of one another.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Nov 3 '18 at 15:18
$begingroup$
@Anopdmaninthesea. What "thinner partition"? I'm just giving an example of how independent the two partitions are of one another.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Nov 3 '18 at 15:18
$begingroup$
Arthur, can you give me an example of an element/germ in set, but not the other?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 12:58
$begingroup$
Arthur, can you give me an example of an element/germ in set, but not the other?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 12:58
$begingroup$
@Anoldmaninthesea The two sets have no elements at all in common. Every single element / germ in one is not in the other.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Feb 3 at 13:06
$begingroup$
@Anoldmaninthesea The two sets have no elements at all in common. Every single element / germ in one is not in the other.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Feb 3 at 13:06
$begingroup$
Ahhh, so, in any germ at point $p$, we can find an $f$ which is $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $p$, but it's not $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $q$, or it may not even be defined $q$. Or even if define in a way that all the previous are satisfied, we still have $[f_1]_p=[f_2]_p$ but $[f_1]_qneq [f_2]_q$,. Ex: $f_1=f_2=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$, but $f_1=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$ and $f_2=x^2-q^2$ at $mathcal{O_q}$. Correct?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 13:25
$begingroup$
Ahhh, so, in any germ at point $p$, we can find an $f$ which is $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $p$, but it's not $C^{infty}$ at an open neighbourhood of $q$, or it may not even be defined $q$. Or even if define in a way that all the previous are satisfied, we still have $[f_1]_p=[f_2]_p$ but $[f_1]_qneq [f_2]_q$,. Ex: $f_1=f_2=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$, but $f_1=0$ at $mathcal{O_p}$ and $f_2=x^2-q^2$ at $mathcal{O_q}$. Correct?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Feb 3 at 13:25
|
show 1 more comment
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They are isomorphic to one another, of course, but there are many different isomorphisms. Hence, given $fin C^infty_p$ and $gin C^infty_q$, there is no way to determine whether $f=g$ or not.
$endgroup$
– Amitai Yuval
Nov 3 '18 at 13:14
$begingroup$
@AmitaiYuval Thanks for your comment. So, you're saying that whenever there are 2 or more different isomorphisms, since there is no way to determine whether g=f, we just say that both sets are different?
$endgroup$
– An old man in the sea.
Nov 3 '18 at 14:42