Subset of a P-ideal need not be a P-ideal












6












$begingroup$


I was looking for examples showing that subset of a P-ideal is not necessary. I will post below a counterexample I was able to find. (I hope it is correct.) But I'd be glad to see other simple (or interesting) examples.$newcommand{I}{mathcal I}newcommand{J}{mathcal K}$



An ideal $I$ of subsets of some set $X$ is said to be a P-ideal if,
for every sequence $(A_n)_{ninmathbb N}$ of sets from $I$, there is an $AinI$ such that $A_nsubset^*A$ for all $n$'s. (The notation $Asubset^*B$ means that $Asetminus B$ is finite.)



Several equivalent reformulations of this property can be obtained relatively easily.
Some authors work with dual notion called P-filter. A filter $mathcal F$ is P-filter if and only if every countable system of sets from $mathcal F$ has a pseudointersection in $mathcal F$. Ultrafilters with this property are called p-points.



I am mostly interested in P-ideals on countable sets, so we can w.l.o.g assume $X=mathbb N$.




Question: What are some examples of ideals $I$, $J$ such that $JsubseteqI$, where $I$ is a P-ideal but $J$ is not a P-ideal.











share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    If you allow higher cardinals, then a weakly compact cardinal has this property.
    $endgroup$
    – Eran
    Mar 12 '13 at 13:30
















6












$begingroup$


I was looking for examples showing that subset of a P-ideal is not necessary. I will post below a counterexample I was able to find. (I hope it is correct.) But I'd be glad to see other simple (or interesting) examples.$newcommand{I}{mathcal I}newcommand{J}{mathcal K}$



An ideal $I$ of subsets of some set $X$ is said to be a P-ideal if,
for every sequence $(A_n)_{ninmathbb N}$ of sets from $I$, there is an $AinI$ such that $A_nsubset^*A$ for all $n$'s. (The notation $Asubset^*B$ means that $Asetminus B$ is finite.)



Several equivalent reformulations of this property can be obtained relatively easily.
Some authors work with dual notion called P-filter. A filter $mathcal F$ is P-filter if and only if every countable system of sets from $mathcal F$ has a pseudointersection in $mathcal F$. Ultrafilters with this property are called p-points.



I am mostly interested in P-ideals on countable sets, so we can w.l.o.g assume $X=mathbb N$.




Question: What are some examples of ideals $I$, $J$ such that $JsubseteqI$, where $I$ is a P-ideal but $J$ is not a P-ideal.











share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    If you allow higher cardinals, then a weakly compact cardinal has this property.
    $endgroup$
    – Eran
    Mar 12 '13 at 13:30














6












6








6





$begingroup$


I was looking for examples showing that subset of a P-ideal is not necessary. I will post below a counterexample I was able to find. (I hope it is correct.) But I'd be glad to see other simple (or interesting) examples.$newcommand{I}{mathcal I}newcommand{J}{mathcal K}$



An ideal $I$ of subsets of some set $X$ is said to be a P-ideal if,
for every sequence $(A_n)_{ninmathbb N}$ of sets from $I$, there is an $AinI$ such that $A_nsubset^*A$ for all $n$'s. (The notation $Asubset^*B$ means that $Asetminus B$ is finite.)



Several equivalent reformulations of this property can be obtained relatively easily.
Some authors work with dual notion called P-filter. A filter $mathcal F$ is P-filter if and only if every countable system of sets from $mathcal F$ has a pseudointersection in $mathcal F$. Ultrafilters with this property are called p-points.



I am mostly interested in P-ideals on countable sets, so we can w.l.o.g assume $X=mathbb N$.




Question: What are some examples of ideals $I$, $J$ such that $JsubseteqI$, where $I$ is a P-ideal but $J$ is not a P-ideal.











share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




I was looking for examples showing that subset of a P-ideal is not necessary. I will post below a counterexample I was able to find. (I hope it is correct.) But I'd be glad to see other simple (or interesting) examples.$newcommand{I}{mathcal I}newcommand{J}{mathcal K}$



An ideal $I$ of subsets of some set $X$ is said to be a P-ideal if,
for every sequence $(A_n)_{ninmathbb N}$ of sets from $I$, there is an $AinI$ such that $A_nsubset^*A$ for all $n$'s. (The notation $Asubset^*B$ means that $Asetminus B$ is finite.)



Several equivalent reformulations of this property can be obtained relatively easily.
Some authors work with dual notion called P-filter. A filter $mathcal F$ is P-filter if and only if every countable system of sets from $mathcal F$ has a pseudointersection in $mathcal F$. Ultrafilters with this property are called p-points.



I am mostly interested in P-ideals on countable sets, so we can w.l.o.g assume $X=mathbb N$.




Question: What are some examples of ideals $I$, $J$ such that $JsubseteqI$, where $I$ is a P-ideal but $J$ is not a P-ideal.








set-theory ideals filters






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Mar 11 '13 at 12:48









Martin SleziakMartin Sleziak

44.8k10118272




44.8k10118272












  • $begingroup$
    If you allow higher cardinals, then a weakly compact cardinal has this property.
    $endgroup$
    – Eran
    Mar 12 '13 at 13:30


















  • $begingroup$
    If you allow higher cardinals, then a weakly compact cardinal has this property.
    $endgroup$
    – Eran
    Mar 12 '13 at 13:30
















$begingroup$
If you allow higher cardinals, then a weakly compact cardinal has this property.
$endgroup$
– Eran
Mar 12 '13 at 13:30




$begingroup$
If you allow higher cardinals, then a weakly compact cardinal has this property.
$endgroup$
– Eran
Mar 12 '13 at 13:30










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2





+100







$begingroup$

It's easy to construct such examples. First construct a sequence $A_alpha$ ($alpha < omega_1$) of subsets of $mathbb{N}$, satisfying $A_alpha subset^* A_beta$ for all $alpha < beta < omega_1$ (so $A_alpha setminus A_beta$ is finite and $A_beta setminus A_alpha$ is infinite). This is easy to do using a diagonalization argument.



At Martin's request, I'll outline the construction of such a sequence. Start with $A_0 = emptyset$. At a successor step $alpha+1$, let $A_{alpha+1} = A_alphacup B$, where $B$ is any infinite, co-infinite subset of $mathbb{N}setminus A_alpha$. (For this we need to ensure that $A_alpha$ is co-infinite for every $alpha$; we'll see how to do this in the limit stage too.) Now for limit $alpha$, suppose $alpha_n$ is an increasing, cofinal sequence in $alpha$, and let $A$ be the union $bigcup A_{alpha_n}$. For each $n$ choose a point $t_nin A_{alpha_n}$ such that $t_n$ is not in $A_{alpha_m}$ for any $m < n$. Let $A_alpha = Asetminus{t_n | ninmathbb{N}}$.



Now take $mathcal{I}$ to be the ideal of subsets $A$ of $mathbb{N}$ such that $Asubseteq^* A_alpha$ for some $alpha < omega_1$, and, for some fixed limit ordinal $beta < omega_1$, let $mathcal{K}_beta$ be the ideal of subsets $A$ of $mathbb{N}$ such that $Asubseteq^* A_alpha$ for some $alpha < beta$. It's easy to see that $mathcal{I}$ is a $P$-ideal. To see that $mathcal{K}_beta$ is not a $P$-ideal, consider a cofinal sequence $beta_n$ in $beta$; then the sequence $A_{beta_n}$ has no $subseteq^*$-upper bound in $mathcal{K}_beta$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Could you, please, elaborate a little more on the construction of $A_alpha$, $alpha<omega_1$? Thanks!
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Mar 12 '13 at 20:35












  • $begingroup$
    @Martin; perhaps it's not so easy. I've added an explanation of the construction.
    $endgroup$
    – Paul McKenney
    Mar 13 '13 at 14:00










  • $begingroup$
    If I understand your argument correctly, $A_{alpha_n}setminus A_alpha subseteq {t_1,dots,t_n}$ and $A_alphasetminus A_{alpha_n} supseteq A_{alpha_{n+1}}setminus A_{alpha_n}$ imply that the set $A_alpha$ has the required properties. The set ${t_n;ninomega}$ is an infinite set outside $A_alpha$, hence $A_alpha$ is not cofinite. In the non-limit case $A_{alpha}setminus A_{alpha+1}=emptyset$ is finite and $A_{alpha+1}setminus A_alpha=B$ is infinite.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Mar 13 '13 at 14:12












  • $begingroup$
    What I was trying was unnecessary complicated - I was trying to show that ${omegasetminus A_gamma; gamma<alpha}$ has an infinite pseudointersection $P$ and use $P$ to construct $A_alpha$. Thanks a lot for your help!
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Mar 13 '13 at 14:13



















5












$begingroup$

Let $$D_k={ninmathbb N; text{prime factorization of $n$ has precisely $k$ prime factors}}.$$
This is decomposition of $mathbb N$ into infinitely many infinite pairwise disjoint subsets.



Let us define $J={Asubseteqmathbb N; Atext{ intersects only finitely many of sets }D_n}$. Then $J$ is an ideal and it is not a P-ideal. (To see this just take $A_n=D_n$.)



But every set in $J$ has asymptotic density zero, so $JsubseteqI={Asubseteqmathbb N; d(A)=0}$. It is known that ideal consisting of sets having zero asymptotic density is a P-ideal. In fact, S. Solecki described large class of analytic P-ideals in a similar way, with some type of submeasure instead of asymptotic density; S.Solecki: Analytic Ideals. Bull. Symbolic Logic Volume 2, Number 3 (1996), 339-348; available here,
projecteuclid, jstor.



The fact that each set $AinJ$ has density zero is given as Corollary 2, in I. Niven: The asymptotic density of sequences; DOI:10.1090/S0002-9904-1951-09543-9, projecteuclid.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks Martin for sharing the thoughts.
    $endgroup$
    – mrs
    Mar 11 '13 at 12:50






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Just a comment: $mathcal{K}$ is (a copy of) the Fubini product $mathrm{Fin} times emptyset$.
    $endgroup$
    – Paolo Leonetti
    Dec 9 '18 at 18:01



















2












$begingroup$

Let $mathcal{I}$ be the ideal of asymptotic density zero sets and $mathcal{K}$ be the ideal of Banach density zero sets. Then it is well known that $mathcal{K} subseteq mathcal{I}$, $mathcal{I}$ is a P-ideal, and $mathcal{K}$ is not a P-ideal.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













    Your Answer





    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
    });
    });
    }, "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "69"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: true,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: 10,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });














    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f327417%2fsubset-of-a-p-ideal-need-not-be-a-p-ideal%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    2





    +100







    $begingroup$

    It's easy to construct such examples. First construct a sequence $A_alpha$ ($alpha < omega_1$) of subsets of $mathbb{N}$, satisfying $A_alpha subset^* A_beta$ for all $alpha < beta < omega_1$ (so $A_alpha setminus A_beta$ is finite and $A_beta setminus A_alpha$ is infinite). This is easy to do using a diagonalization argument.



    At Martin's request, I'll outline the construction of such a sequence. Start with $A_0 = emptyset$. At a successor step $alpha+1$, let $A_{alpha+1} = A_alphacup B$, where $B$ is any infinite, co-infinite subset of $mathbb{N}setminus A_alpha$. (For this we need to ensure that $A_alpha$ is co-infinite for every $alpha$; we'll see how to do this in the limit stage too.) Now for limit $alpha$, suppose $alpha_n$ is an increasing, cofinal sequence in $alpha$, and let $A$ be the union $bigcup A_{alpha_n}$. For each $n$ choose a point $t_nin A_{alpha_n}$ such that $t_n$ is not in $A_{alpha_m}$ for any $m < n$. Let $A_alpha = Asetminus{t_n | ninmathbb{N}}$.



    Now take $mathcal{I}$ to be the ideal of subsets $A$ of $mathbb{N}$ such that $Asubseteq^* A_alpha$ for some $alpha < omega_1$, and, for some fixed limit ordinal $beta < omega_1$, let $mathcal{K}_beta$ be the ideal of subsets $A$ of $mathbb{N}$ such that $Asubseteq^* A_alpha$ for some $alpha < beta$. It's easy to see that $mathcal{I}$ is a $P$-ideal. To see that $mathcal{K}_beta$ is not a $P$-ideal, consider a cofinal sequence $beta_n$ in $beta$; then the sequence $A_{beta_n}$ has no $subseteq^*$-upper bound in $mathcal{K}_beta$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Could you, please, elaborate a little more on the construction of $A_alpha$, $alpha<omega_1$? Thanks!
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 12 '13 at 20:35












    • $begingroup$
      @Martin; perhaps it's not so easy. I've added an explanation of the construction.
      $endgroup$
      – Paul McKenney
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:00










    • $begingroup$
      If I understand your argument correctly, $A_{alpha_n}setminus A_alpha subseteq {t_1,dots,t_n}$ and $A_alphasetminus A_{alpha_n} supseteq A_{alpha_{n+1}}setminus A_{alpha_n}$ imply that the set $A_alpha$ has the required properties. The set ${t_n;ninomega}$ is an infinite set outside $A_alpha$, hence $A_alpha$ is not cofinite. In the non-limit case $A_{alpha}setminus A_{alpha+1}=emptyset$ is finite and $A_{alpha+1}setminus A_alpha=B$ is infinite.
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:12












    • $begingroup$
      What I was trying was unnecessary complicated - I was trying to show that ${omegasetminus A_gamma; gamma<alpha}$ has an infinite pseudointersection $P$ and use $P$ to construct $A_alpha$. Thanks a lot for your help!
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:13
















    2





    +100







    $begingroup$

    It's easy to construct such examples. First construct a sequence $A_alpha$ ($alpha < omega_1$) of subsets of $mathbb{N}$, satisfying $A_alpha subset^* A_beta$ for all $alpha < beta < omega_1$ (so $A_alpha setminus A_beta$ is finite and $A_beta setminus A_alpha$ is infinite). This is easy to do using a diagonalization argument.



    At Martin's request, I'll outline the construction of such a sequence. Start with $A_0 = emptyset$. At a successor step $alpha+1$, let $A_{alpha+1} = A_alphacup B$, where $B$ is any infinite, co-infinite subset of $mathbb{N}setminus A_alpha$. (For this we need to ensure that $A_alpha$ is co-infinite for every $alpha$; we'll see how to do this in the limit stage too.) Now for limit $alpha$, suppose $alpha_n$ is an increasing, cofinal sequence in $alpha$, and let $A$ be the union $bigcup A_{alpha_n}$. For each $n$ choose a point $t_nin A_{alpha_n}$ such that $t_n$ is not in $A_{alpha_m}$ for any $m < n$. Let $A_alpha = Asetminus{t_n | ninmathbb{N}}$.



    Now take $mathcal{I}$ to be the ideal of subsets $A$ of $mathbb{N}$ such that $Asubseteq^* A_alpha$ for some $alpha < omega_1$, and, for some fixed limit ordinal $beta < omega_1$, let $mathcal{K}_beta$ be the ideal of subsets $A$ of $mathbb{N}$ such that $Asubseteq^* A_alpha$ for some $alpha < beta$. It's easy to see that $mathcal{I}$ is a $P$-ideal. To see that $mathcal{K}_beta$ is not a $P$-ideal, consider a cofinal sequence $beta_n$ in $beta$; then the sequence $A_{beta_n}$ has no $subseteq^*$-upper bound in $mathcal{K}_beta$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Could you, please, elaborate a little more on the construction of $A_alpha$, $alpha<omega_1$? Thanks!
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 12 '13 at 20:35












    • $begingroup$
      @Martin; perhaps it's not so easy. I've added an explanation of the construction.
      $endgroup$
      – Paul McKenney
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:00










    • $begingroup$
      If I understand your argument correctly, $A_{alpha_n}setminus A_alpha subseteq {t_1,dots,t_n}$ and $A_alphasetminus A_{alpha_n} supseteq A_{alpha_{n+1}}setminus A_{alpha_n}$ imply that the set $A_alpha$ has the required properties. The set ${t_n;ninomega}$ is an infinite set outside $A_alpha$, hence $A_alpha$ is not cofinite. In the non-limit case $A_{alpha}setminus A_{alpha+1}=emptyset$ is finite and $A_{alpha+1}setminus A_alpha=B$ is infinite.
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:12












    • $begingroup$
      What I was trying was unnecessary complicated - I was trying to show that ${omegasetminus A_gamma; gamma<alpha}$ has an infinite pseudointersection $P$ and use $P$ to construct $A_alpha$. Thanks a lot for your help!
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:13














    2





    +100







    2





    +100



    2




    +100



    $begingroup$

    It's easy to construct such examples. First construct a sequence $A_alpha$ ($alpha < omega_1$) of subsets of $mathbb{N}$, satisfying $A_alpha subset^* A_beta$ for all $alpha < beta < omega_1$ (so $A_alpha setminus A_beta$ is finite and $A_beta setminus A_alpha$ is infinite). This is easy to do using a diagonalization argument.



    At Martin's request, I'll outline the construction of such a sequence. Start with $A_0 = emptyset$. At a successor step $alpha+1$, let $A_{alpha+1} = A_alphacup B$, where $B$ is any infinite, co-infinite subset of $mathbb{N}setminus A_alpha$. (For this we need to ensure that $A_alpha$ is co-infinite for every $alpha$; we'll see how to do this in the limit stage too.) Now for limit $alpha$, suppose $alpha_n$ is an increasing, cofinal sequence in $alpha$, and let $A$ be the union $bigcup A_{alpha_n}$. For each $n$ choose a point $t_nin A_{alpha_n}$ such that $t_n$ is not in $A_{alpha_m}$ for any $m < n$. Let $A_alpha = Asetminus{t_n | ninmathbb{N}}$.



    Now take $mathcal{I}$ to be the ideal of subsets $A$ of $mathbb{N}$ such that $Asubseteq^* A_alpha$ for some $alpha < omega_1$, and, for some fixed limit ordinal $beta < omega_1$, let $mathcal{K}_beta$ be the ideal of subsets $A$ of $mathbb{N}$ such that $Asubseteq^* A_alpha$ for some $alpha < beta$. It's easy to see that $mathcal{I}$ is a $P$-ideal. To see that $mathcal{K}_beta$ is not a $P$-ideal, consider a cofinal sequence $beta_n$ in $beta$; then the sequence $A_{beta_n}$ has no $subseteq^*$-upper bound in $mathcal{K}_beta$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    It's easy to construct such examples. First construct a sequence $A_alpha$ ($alpha < omega_1$) of subsets of $mathbb{N}$, satisfying $A_alpha subset^* A_beta$ for all $alpha < beta < omega_1$ (so $A_alpha setminus A_beta$ is finite and $A_beta setminus A_alpha$ is infinite). This is easy to do using a diagonalization argument.



    At Martin's request, I'll outline the construction of such a sequence. Start with $A_0 = emptyset$. At a successor step $alpha+1$, let $A_{alpha+1} = A_alphacup B$, where $B$ is any infinite, co-infinite subset of $mathbb{N}setminus A_alpha$. (For this we need to ensure that $A_alpha$ is co-infinite for every $alpha$; we'll see how to do this in the limit stage too.) Now for limit $alpha$, suppose $alpha_n$ is an increasing, cofinal sequence in $alpha$, and let $A$ be the union $bigcup A_{alpha_n}$. For each $n$ choose a point $t_nin A_{alpha_n}$ such that $t_n$ is not in $A_{alpha_m}$ for any $m < n$. Let $A_alpha = Asetminus{t_n | ninmathbb{N}}$.



    Now take $mathcal{I}$ to be the ideal of subsets $A$ of $mathbb{N}$ such that $Asubseteq^* A_alpha$ for some $alpha < omega_1$, and, for some fixed limit ordinal $beta < omega_1$, let $mathcal{K}_beta$ be the ideal of subsets $A$ of $mathbb{N}$ such that $Asubseteq^* A_alpha$ for some $alpha < beta$. It's easy to see that $mathcal{I}$ is a $P$-ideal. To see that $mathcal{K}_beta$ is not a $P$-ideal, consider a cofinal sequence $beta_n$ in $beta$; then the sequence $A_{beta_n}$ has no $subseteq^*$-upper bound in $mathcal{K}_beta$.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Mar 13 '13 at 13:59

























    answered Mar 12 '13 at 20:03









    Paul McKenneyPaul McKenney

    1,208813




    1,208813












    • $begingroup$
      Could you, please, elaborate a little more on the construction of $A_alpha$, $alpha<omega_1$? Thanks!
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 12 '13 at 20:35












    • $begingroup$
      @Martin; perhaps it's not so easy. I've added an explanation of the construction.
      $endgroup$
      – Paul McKenney
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:00










    • $begingroup$
      If I understand your argument correctly, $A_{alpha_n}setminus A_alpha subseteq {t_1,dots,t_n}$ and $A_alphasetminus A_{alpha_n} supseteq A_{alpha_{n+1}}setminus A_{alpha_n}$ imply that the set $A_alpha$ has the required properties. The set ${t_n;ninomega}$ is an infinite set outside $A_alpha$, hence $A_alpha$ is not cofinite. In the non-limit case $A_{alpha}setminus A_{alpha+1}=emptyset$ is finite and $A_{alpha+1}setminus A_alpha=B$ is infinite.
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:12












    • $begingroup$
      What I was trying was unnecessary complicated - I was trying to show that ${omegasetminus A_gamma; gamma<alpha}$ has an infinite pseudointersection $P$ and use $P$ to construct $A_alpha$. Thanks a lot for your help!
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:13


















    • $begingroup$
      Could you, please, elaborate a little more on the construction of $A_alpha$, $alpha<omega_1$? Thanks!
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 12 '13 at 20:35












    • $begingroup$
      @Martin; perhaps it's not so easy. I've added an explanation of the construction.
      $endgroup$
      – Paul McKenney
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:00










    • $begingroup$
      If I understand your argument correctly, $A_{alpha_n}setminus A_alpha subseteq {t_1,dots,t_n}$ and $A_alphasetminus A_{alpha_n} supseteq A_{alpha_{n+1}}setminus A_{alpha_n}$ imply that the set $A_alpha$ has the required properties. The set ${t_n;ninomega}$ is an infinite set outside $A_alpha$, hence $A_alpha$ is not cofinite. In the non-limit case $A_{alpha}setminus A_{alpha+1}=emptyset$ is finite and $A_{alpha+1}setminus A_alpha=B$ is infinite.
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:12












    • $begingroup$
      What I was trying was unnecessary complicated - I was trying to show that ${omegasetminus A_gamma; gamma<alpha}$ has an infinite pseudointersection $P$ and use $P$ to construct $A_alpha$. Thanks a lot for your help!
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Sleziak
      Mar 13 '13 at 14:13
















    $begingroup$
    Could you, please, elaborate a little more on the construction of $A_alpha$, $alpha<omega_1$? Thanks!
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Mar 12 '13 at 20:35






    $begingroup$
    Could you, please, elaborate a little more on the construction of $A_alpha$, $alpha<omega_1$? Thanks!
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Mar 12 '13 at 20:35














    $begingroup$
    @Martin; perhaps it's not so easy. I've added an explanation of the construction.
    $endgroup$
    – Paul McKenney
    Mar 13 '13 at 14:00




    $begingroup$
    @Martin; perhaps it's not so easy. I've added an explanation of the construction.
    $endgroup$
    – Paul McKenney
    Mar 13 '13 at 14:00












    $begingroup$
    If I understand your argument correctly, $A_{alpha_n}setminus A_alpha subseteq {t_1,dots,t_n}$ and $A_alphasetminus A_{alpha_n} supseteq A_{alpha_{n+1}}setminus A_{alpha_n}$ imply that the set $A_alpha$ has the required properties. The set ${t_n;ninomega}$ is an infinite set outside $A_alpha$, hence $A_alpha$ is not cofinite. In the non-limit case $A_{alpha}setminus A_{alpha+1}=emptyset$ is finite and $A_{alpha+1}setminus A_alpha=B$ is infinite.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Mar 13 '13 at 14:12






    $begingroup$
    If I understand your argument correctly, $A_{alpha_n}setminus A_alpha subseteq {t_1,dots,t_n}$ and $A_alphasetminus A_{alpha_n} supseteq A_{alpha_{n+1}}setminus A_{alpha_n}$ imply that the set $A_alpha$ has the required properties. The set ${t_n;ninomega}$ is an infinite set outside $A_alpha$, hence $A_alpha$ is not cofinite. In the non-limit case $A_{alpha}setminus A_{alpha+1}=emptyset$ is finite and $A_{alpha+1}setminus A_alpha=B$ is infinite.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Mar 13 '13 at 14:12














    $begingroup$
    What I was trying was unnecessary complicated - I was trying to show that ${omegasetminus A_gamma; gamma<alpha}$ has an infinite pseudointersection $P$ and use $P$ to construct $A_alpha$. Thanks a lot for your help!
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Mar 13 '13 at 14:13




    $begingroup$
    What I was trying was unnecessary complicated - I was trying to show that ${omegasetminus A_gamma; gamma<alpha}$ has an infinite pseudointersection $P$ and use $P$ to construct $A_alpha$. Thanks a lot for your help!
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Mar 13 '13 at 14:13











    5












    $begingroup$

    Let $$D_k={ninmathbb N; text{prime factorization of $n$ has precisely $k$ prime factors}}.$$
    This is decomposition of $mathbb N$ into infinitely many infinite pairwise disjoint subsets.



    Let us define $J={Asubseteqmathbb N; Atext{ intersects only finitely many of sets }D_n}$. Then $J$ is an ideal and it is not a P-ideal. (To see this just take $A_n=D_n$.)



    But every set in $J$ has asymptotic density zero, so $JsubseteqI={Asubseteqmathbb N; d(A)=0}$. It is known that ideal consisting of sets having zero asymptotic density is a P-ideal. In fact, S. Solecki described large class of analytic P-ideals in a similar way, with some type of submeasure instead of asymptotic density; S.Solecki: Analytic Ideals. Bull. Symbolic Logic Volume 2, Number 3 (1996), 339-348; available here,
    projecteuclid, jstor.



    The fact that each set $AinJ$ has density zero is given as Corollary 2, in I. Niven: The asymptotic density of sequences; DOI:10.1090/S0002-9904-1951-09543-9, projecteuclid.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Thanks Martin for sharing the thoughts.
      $endgroup$
      – mrs
      Mar 11 '13 at 12:50






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Just a comment: $mathcal{K}$ is (a copy of) the Fubini product $mathrm{Fin} times emptyset$.
      $endgroup$
      – Paolo Leonetti
      Dec 9 '18 at 18:01
















    5












    $begingroup$

    Let $$D_k={ninmathbb N; text{prime factorization of $n$ has precisely $k$ prime factors}}.$$
    This is decomposition of $mathbb N$ into infinitely many infinite pairwise disjoint subsets.



    Let us define $J={Asubseteqmathbb N; Atext{ intersects only finitely many of sets }D_n}$. Then $J$ is an ideal and it is not a P-ideal. (To see this just take $A_n=D_n$.)



    But every set in $J$ has asymptotic density zero, so $JsubseteqI={Asubseteqmathbb N; d(A)=0}$. It is known that ideal consisting of sets having zero asymptotic density is a P-ideal. In fact, S. Solecki described large class of analytic P-ideals in a similar way, with some type of submeasure instead of asymptotic density; S.Solecki: Analytic Ideals. Bull. Symbolic Logic Volume 2, Number 3 (1996), 339-348; available here,
    projecteuclid, jstor.



    The fact that each set $AinJ$ has density zero is given as Corollary 2, in I. Niven: The asymptotic density of sequences; DOI:10.1090/S0002-9904-1951-09543-9, projecteuclid.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Thanks Martin for sharing the thoughts.
      $endgroup$
      – mrs
      Mar 11 '13 at 12:50






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Just a comment: $mathcal{K}$ is (a copy of) the Fubini product $mathrm{Fin} times emptyset$.
      $endgroup$
      – Paolo Leonetti
      Dec 9 '18 at 18:01














    5












    5








    5





    $begingroup$

    Let $$D_k={ninmathbb N; text{prime factorization of $n$ has precisely $k$ prime factors}}.$$
    This is decomposition of $mathbb N$ into infinitely many infinite pairwise disjoint subsets.



    Let us define $J={Asubseteqmathbb N; Atext{ intersects only finitely many of sets }D_n}$. Then $J$ is an ideal and it is not a P-ideal. (To see this just take $A_n=D_n$.)



    But every set in $J$ has asymptotic density zero, so $JsubseteqI={Asubseteqmathbb N; d(A)=0}$. It is known that ideal consisting of sets having zero asymptotic density is a P-ideal. In fact, S. Solecki described large class of analytic P-ideals in a similar way, with some type of submeasure instead of asymptotic density; S.Solecki: Analytic Ideals. Bull. Symbolic Logic Volume 2, Number 3 (1996), 339-348; available here,
    projecteuclid, jstor.



    The fact that each set $AinJ$ has density zero is given as Corollary 2, in I. Niven: The asymptotic density of sequences; DOI:10.1090/S0002-9904-1951-09543-9, projecteuclid.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Let $$D_k={ninmathbb N; text{prime factorization of $n$ has precisely $k$ prime factors}}.$$
    This is decomposition of $mathbb N$ into infinitely many infinite pairwise disjoint subsets.



    Let us define $J={Asubseteqmathbb N; Atext{ intersects only finitely many of sets }D_n}$. Then $J$ is an ideal and it is not a P-ideal. (To see this just take $A_n=D_n$.)



    But every set in $J$ has asymptotic density zero, so $JsubseteqI={Asubseteqmathbb N; d(A)=0}$. It is known that ideal consisting of sets having zero asymptotic density is a P-ideal. In fact, S. Solecki described large class of analytic P-ideals in a similar way, with some type of submeasure instead of asymptotic density; S.Solecki: Analytic Ideals. Bull. Symbolic Logic Volume 2, Number 3 (1996), 339-348; available here,
    projecteuclid, jstor.



    The fact that each set $AinJ$ has density zero is given as Corollary 2, in I. Niven: The asymptotic density of sequences; DOI:10.1090/S0002-9904-1951-09543-9, projecteuclid.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Mar 14 '13 at 13:02


























    community wiki





    3 revs
    Martin Sleziak













    • $begingroup$
      Thanks Martin for sharing the thoughts.
      $endgroup$
      – mrs
      Mar 11 '13 at 12:50






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Just a comment: $mathcal{K}$ is (a copy of) the Fubini product $mathrm{Fin} times emptyset$.
      $endgroup$
      – Paolo Leonetti
      Dec 9 '18 at 18:01


















    • $begingroup$
      Thanks Martin for sharing the thoughts.
      $endgroup$
      – mrs
      Mar 11 '13 at 12:50






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Just a comment: $mathcal{K}$ is (a copy of) the Fubini product $mathrm{Fin} times emptyset$.
      $endgroup$
      – Paolo Leonetti
      Dec 9 '18 at 18:01
















    $begingroup$
    Thanks Martin for sharing the thoughts.
    $endgroup$
    – mrs
    Mar 11 '13 at 12:50




    $begingroup$
    Thanks Martin for sharing the thoughts.
    $endgroup$
    – mrs
    Mar 11 '13 at 12:50




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    Just a comment: $mathcal{K}$ is (a copy of) the Fubini product $mathrm{Fin} times emptyset$.
    $endgroup$
    – Paolo Leonetti
    Dec 9 '18 at 18:01




    $begingroup$
    Just a comment: $mathcal{K}$ is (a copy of) the Fubini product $mathrm{Fin} times emptyset$.
    $endgroup$
    – Paolo Leonetti
    Dec 9 '18 at 18:01











    2












    $begingroup$

    Let $mathcal{I}$ be the ideal of asymptotic density zero sets and $mathcal{K}$ be the ideal of Banach density zero sets. Then it is well known that $mathcal{K} subseteq mathcal{I}$, $mathcal{I}$ is a P-ideal, and $mathcal{K}$ is not a P-ideal.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$


















      2












      $begingroup$

      Let $mathcal{I}$ be the ideal of asymptotic density zero sets and $mathcal{K}$ be the ideal of Banach density zero sets. Then it is well known that $mathcal{K} subseteq mathcal{I}$, $mathcal{I}$ is a P-ideal, and $mathcal{K}$ is not a P-ideal.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$
















        2












        2








        2





        $begingroup$

        Let $mathcal{I}$ be the ideal of asymptotic density zero sets and $mathcal{K}$ be the ideal of Banach density zero sets. Then it is well known that $mathcal{K} subseteq mathcal{I}$, $mathcal{I}$ is a P-ideal, and $mathcal{K}$ is not a P-ideal.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Let $mathcal{I}$ be the ideal of asymptotic density zero sets and $mathcal{K}$ be the ideal of Banach density zero sets. Then it is well known that $mathcal{K} subseteq mathcal{I}$, $mathcal{I}$ is a P-ideal, and $mathcal{K}$ is not a P-ideal.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Dec 9 '18 at 18:02









        Paolo LeonettiPaolo Leonetti

        11.5k21550




        11.5k21550






























            draft saved

            draft discarded




















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f327417%2fsubset-of-a-p-ideal-need-not-be-a-p-ideal%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Bundesstraße 106

            Verónica Boquete

            Ida-Boy-Ed-Garten