What is meant by statisticians when they talk about between population differences vs within population...












2














Suppose we have two populations of people in different parts of the world and we want to talk about the variation in heights between the two populations. As I understand it, statisticians are talking about the variation of height in people randomly selected from each population. Suppose that everyone in one population is 5 feet tall and everyone in the other population is 6 feet tall. Would it be correct to say that the within population variation is 0 but the between population variation is 1 foot? Alternatively, if the mean and variance of the two populations were identical, would it be right to say that the between population variation is 0 and the within population varition is just the usual variance? Is there a simple general formula for determining the two values?










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  • It is good that you are thinking about a question like this. Variance is one way (but not the only way) we can measure variation within a population. When comparing two populations, we might just want to compare means, or we might want to look at other things. So, good question, but I think it would be a much better question with some specific examples of uses of these terms that you have encountered in your reading.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:45










  • I see that the question has been edited since I first read it. I am not sure the edits are consistent with what you meant to say. You can edit the question again (or roll it back) if necessary so it asks what you mean to ask.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:48
















2














Suppose we have two populations of people in different parts of the world and we want to talk about the variation in heights between the two populations. As I understand it, statisticians are talking about the variation of height in people randomly selected from each population. Suppose that everyone in one population is 5 feet tall and everyone in the other population is 6 feet tall. Would it be correct to say that the within population variation is 0 but the between population variation is 1 foot? Alternatively, if the mean and variance of the two populations were identical, would it be right to say that the between population variation is 0 and the within population varition is just the usual variance? Is there a simple general formula for determining the two values?










share|cite|improve this question
















bumped to the homepage by Community yesterday


This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed.















  • It is good that you are thinking about a question like this. Variance is one way (but not the only way) we can measure variation within a population. When comparing two populations, we might just want to compare means, or we might want to look at other things. So, good question, but I think it would be a much better question with some specific examples of uses of these terms that you have encountered in your reading.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:45










  • I see that the question has been edited since I first read it. I am not sure the edits are consistent with what you meant to say. You can edit the question again (or roll it back) if necessary so it asks what you mean to ask.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:48














2












2








2







Suppose we have two populations of people in different parts of the world and we want to talk about the variation in heights between the two populations. As I understand it, statisticians are talking about the variation of height in people randomly selected from each population. Suppose that everyone in one population is 5 feet tall and everyone in the other population is 6 feet tall. Would it be correct to say that the within population variation is 0 but the between population variation is 1 foot? Alternatively, if the mean and variance of the two populations were identical, would it be right to say that the between population variation is 0 and the within population varition is just the usual variance? Is there a simple general formula for determining the two values?










share|cite|improve this question















Suppose we have two populations of people in different parts of the world and we want to talk about the variation in heights between the two populations. As I understand it, statisticians are talking about the variation of height in people randomly selected from each population. Suppose that everyone in one population is 5 feet tall and everyone in the other population is 6 feet tall. Would it be correct to say that the within population variation is 0 but the between population variation is 1 foot? Alternatively, if the mean and variance of the two populations were identical, would it be right to say that the between population variation is 0 and the within population varition is just the usual variance? Is there a simple general formula for determining the two values?







statistics standard-deviation covariance






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edited Jun 28 '15 at 20:34









Stanley

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asked Jun 28 '15 at 19:47









user1153980

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bumped to the homepage by Community yesterday


This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed.







bumped to the homepage by Community yesterday


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  • It is good that you are thinking about a question like this. Variance is one way (but not the only way) we can measure variation within a population. When comparing two populations, we might just want to compare means, or we might want to look at other things. So, good question, but I think it would be a much better question with some specific examples of uses of these terms that you have encountered in your reading.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:45










  • I see that the question has been edited since I first read it. I am not sure the edits are consistent with what you meant to say. You can edit the question again (or roll it back) if necessary so it asks what you mean to ask.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:48


















  • It is good that you are thinking about a question like this. Variance is one way (but not the only way) we can measure variation within a population. When comparing two populations, we might just want to compare means, or we might want to look at other things. So, good question, but I think it would be a much better question with some specific examples of uses of these terms that you have encountered in your reading.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:45










  • I see that the question has been edited since I first read it. I am not sure the edits are consistent with what you meant to say. You can edit the question again (or roll it back) if necessary so it asks what you mean to ask.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:48
















It is good that you are thinking about a question like this. Variance is one way (but not the only way) we can measure variation within a population. When comparing two populations, we might just want to compare means, or we might want to look at other things. So, good question, but I think it would be a much better question with some specific examples of uses of these terms that you have encountered in your reading.
– David K
Jun 28 '15 at 20:45




It is good that you are thinking about a question like this. Variance is one way (but not the only way) we can measure variation within a population. When comparing two populations, we might just want to compare means, or we might want to look at other things. So, good question, but I think it would be a much better question with some specific examples of uses of these terms that you have encountered in your reading.
– David K
Jun 28 '15 at 20:45












I see that the question has been edited since I first read it. I am not sure the edits are consistent with what you meant to say. You can edit the question again (or roll it back) if necessary so it asks what you mean to ask.
– David K
Jun 28 '15 at 20:48




I see that the question has been edited since I first read it. I am not sure the edits are consistent with what you meant to say. You can edit the question again (or roll it back) if necessary so it asks what you mean to ask.
– David K
Jun 28 '15 at 20:48










2 Answers
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If everyone is 5 feet tall in country A and 6 feet tall in country B, then each individual country has mean 5,6 height respectively, with zero variance. However if you want to compare the two, you need to know the population size. For example if there are $n_A,n_B$ people in both countries, then the mean height amongst both is: $m=frac{5n_A+6n_B}{n_A+n_B}$. Similarly, the variance amoungst both countries needs to take into account respective population sizes: $frac{1}{n_A+n_B}(n_A(5-m)^2+n_B(6-m)^2)$.



Think of it this way, if there's 1 person in country $A$ and a million in country $B$, then saying the population variation is 1 overall isn't really telling of the fact that there's such a population disparity. It's really only telling of extreme outliers.






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  • It seems to me this is a way to combine population statistics rather than a way to compare them. I think the original question mentioned multiple populations for the purpose of comparing them.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:50










  • Alex, That is a great start. That formula looks like how to calculate the within population variance. How would I calculate the between population variance?. Let me give an idea of what motivated this question. There is some debate as to whether there really are different races of people. One statistic that gets thrown around is that between group differences account for 15% of variation and within population difference account for 85%. I have no idea of what this means.
    – user1153980
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:56





















0














One way to compare within and between population differences is by using effect sizes. A popular measure for effect size is Cohen's $d$. Consider two samples with means $mu_1$ and $mu_2$, standard deviations $sigma_1$ and $sigma_2$, and sample sizes $n_1$ and $n_2$. Then Cohen's $d$ is given by
$$d = frac{mu_1-mu_2}{s}$$
where $s$ is the pooled standard deviation given by
$$s = sqrt{frac{(n_1-1)sigma_1^2+(n_2-1)sigma^2_2}{n_1+n_2-2}}.$$
If there are no samples but the distribution parameters are known, then the pooled standard deviation is given by
$$s = sqrt{sigma_1^2+sigma_2^2}.$$
If the standard deviations are equal, i.e. $sigma_1=sigma_2$, then the pooled standard deviation is also equal, i.e. $sigma_1=sigma_2=s$. Hence, you can think of Cohen's $d$ to mean "how big is the difference between the population means in standard deviation units". If the magnitude of the $d$-value exceeds $1$, i.e. $|d|>1$, then the difference between populations can be said to be larger than the difference within populations.






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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
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    If everyone is 5 feet tall in country A and 6 feet tall in country B, then each individual country has mean 5,6 height respectively, with zero variance. However if you want to compare the two, you need to know the population size. For example if there are $n_A,n_B$ people in both countries, then the mean height amongst both is: $m=frac{5n_A+6n_B}{n_A+n_B}$. Similarly, the variance amoungst both countries needs to take into account respective population sizes: $frac{1}{n_A+n_B}(n_A(5-m)^2+n_B(6-m)^2)$.



    Think of it this way, if there's 1 person in country $A$ and a million in country $B$, then saying the population variation is 1 overall isn't really telling of the fact that there's such a population disparity. It's really only telling of extreme outliers.






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • It seems to me this is a way to combine population statistics rather than a way to compare them. I think the original question mentioned multiple populations for the purpose of comparing them.
      – David K
      Jun 28 '15 at 20:50










    • Alex, That is a great start. That formula looks like how to calculate the within population variance. How would I calculate the between population variance?. Let me give an idea of what motivated this question. There is some debate as to whether there really are different races of people. One statistic that gets thrown around is that between group differences account for 15% of variation and within population difference account for 85%. I have no idea of what this means.
      – user1153980
      Jun 28 '15 at 20:56


















    0














    If everyone is 5 feet tall in country A and 6 feet tall in country B, then each individual country has mean 5,6 height respectively, with zero variance. However if you want to compare the two, you need to know the population size. For example if there are $n_A,n_B$ people in both countries, then the mean height amongst both is: $m=frac{5n_A+6n_B}{n_A+n_B}$. Similarly, the variance amoungst both countries needs to take into account respective population sizes: $frac{1}{n_A+n_B}(n_A(5-m)^2+n_B(6-m)^2)$.



    Think of it this way, if there's 1 person in country $A$ and a million in country $B$, then saying the population variation is 1 overall isn't really telling of the fact that there's such a population disparity. It's really only telling of extreme outliers.






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • It seems to me this is a way to combine population statistics rather than a way to compare them. I think the original question mentioned multiple populations for the purpose of comparing them.
      – David K
      Jun 28 '15 at 20:50










    • Alex, That is a great start. That formula looks like how to calculate the within population variance. How would I calculate the between population variance?. Let me give an idea of what motivated this question. There is some debate as to whether there really are different races of people. One statistic that gets thrown around is that between group differences account for 15% of variation and within population difference account for 85%. I have no idea of what this means.
      – user1153980
      Jun 28 '15 at 20:56
















    0












    0








    0






    If everyone is 5 feet tall in country A and 6 feet tall in country B, then each individual country has mean 5,6 height respectively, with zero variance. However if you want to compare the two, you need to know the population size. For example if there are $n_A,n_B$ people in both countries, then the mean height amongst both is: $m=frac{5n_A+6n_B}{n_A+n_B}$. Similarly, the variance amoungst both countries needs to take into account respective population sizes: $frac{1}{n_A+n_B}(n_A(5-m)^2+n_B(6-m)^2)$.



    Think of it this way, if there's 1 person in country $A$ and a million in country $B$, then saying the population variation is 1 overall isn't really telling of the fact that there's such a population disparity. It's really only telling of extreme outliers.






    share|cite|improve this answer














    If everyone is 5 feet tall in country A and 6 feet tall in country B, then each individual country has mean 5,6 height respectively, with zero variance. However if you want to compare the two, you need to know the population size. For example if there are $n_A,n_B$ people in both countries, then the mean height amongst both is: $m=frac{5n_A+6n_B}{n_A+n_B}$. Similarly, the variance amoungst both countries needs to take into account respective population sizes: $frac{1}{n_A+n_B}(n_A(5-m)^2+n_B(6-m)^2)$.



    Think of it this way, if there's 1 person in country $A$ and a million in country $B$, then saying the population variation is 1 overall isn't really telling of the fact that there's such a population disparity. It's really only telling of extreme outliers.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Jun 28 '15 at 20:48

























    answered Jun 28 '15 at 20:43









    Alex R.

    24.7k12352




    24.7k12352












    • It seems to me this is a way to combine population statistics rather than a way to compare them. I think the original question mentioned multiple populations for the purpose of comparing them.
      – David K
      Jun 28 '15 at 20:50










    • Alex, That is a great start. That formula looks like how to calculate the within population variance. How would I calculate the between population variance?. Let me give an idea of what motivated this question. There is some debate as to whether there really are different races of people. One statistic that gets thrown around is that between group differences account for 15% of variation and within population difference account for 85%. I have no idea of what this means.
      – user1153980
      Jun 28 '15 at 20:56




















    • It seems to me this is a way to combine population statistics rather than a way to compare them. I think the original question mentioned multiple populations for the purpose of comparing them.
      – David K
      Jun 28 '15 at 20:50










    • Alex, That is a great start. That formula looks like how to calculate the within population variance. How would I calculate the between population variance?. Let me give an idea of what motivated this question. There is some debate as to whether there really are different races of people. One statistic that gets thrown around is that between group differences account for 15% of variation and within population difference account for 85%. I have no idea of what this means.
      – user1153980
      Jun 28 '15 at 20:56


















    It seems to me this is a way to combine population statistics rather than a way to compare them. I think the original question mentioned multiple populations for the purpose of comparing them.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:50




    It seems to me this is a way to combine population statistics rather than a way to compare them. I think the original question mentioned multiple populations for the purpose of comparing them.
    – David K
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:50












    Alex, That is a great start. That formula looks like how to calculate the within population variance. How would I calculate the between population variance?. Let me give an idea of what motivated this question. There is some debate as to whether there really are different races of people. One statistic that gets thrown around is that between group differences account for 15% of variation and within population difference account for 85%. I have no idea of what this means.
    – user1153980
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:56






    Alex, That is a great start. That formula looks like how to calculate the within population variance. How would I calculate the between population variance?. Let me give an idea of what motivated this question. There is some debate as to whether there really are different races of people. One statistic that gets thrown around is that between group differences account for 15% of variation and within population difference account for 85%. I have no idea of what this means.
    – user1153980
    Jun 28 '15 at 20:56













    0














    One way to compare within and between population differences is by using effect sizes. A popular measure for effect size is Cohen's $d$. Consider two samples with means $mu_1$ and $mu_2$, standard deviations $sigma_1$ and $sigma_2$, and sample sizes $n_1$ and $n_2$. Then Cohen's $d$ is given by
    $$d = frac{mu_1-mu_2}{s}$$
    where $s$ is the pooled standard deviation given by
    $$s = sqrt{frac{(n_1-1)sigma_1^2+(n_2-1)sigma^2_2}{n_1+n_2-2}}.$$
    If there are no samples but the distribution parameters are known, then the pooled standard deviation is given by
    $$s = sqrt{sigma_1^2+sigma_2^2}.$$
    If the standard deviations are equal, i.e. $sigma_1=sigma_2$, then the pooled standard deviation is also equal, i.e. $sigma_1=sigma_2=s$. Hence, you can think of Cohen's $d$ to mean "how big is the difference between the population means in standard deviation units". If the magnitude of the $d$-value exceeds $1$, i.e. $|d|>1$, then the difference between populations can be said to be larger than the difference within populations.






    share|cite|improve this answer


























      0














      One way to compare within and between population differences is by using effect sizes. A popular measure for effect size is Cohen's $d$. Consider two samples with means $mu_1$ and $mu_2$, standard deviations $sigma_1$ and $sigma_2$, and sample sizes $n_1$ and $n_2$. Then Cohen's $d$ is given by
      $$d = frac{mu_1-mu_2}{s}$$
      where $s$ is the pooled standard deviation given by
      $$s = sqrt{frac{(n_1-1)sigma_1^2+(n_2-1)sigma^2_2}{n_1+n_2-2}}.$$
      If there are no samples but the distribution parameters are known, then the pooled standard deviation is given by
      $$s = sqrt{sigma_1^2+sigma_2^2}.$$
      If the standard deviations are equal, i.e. $sigma_1=sigma_2$, then the pooled standard deviation is also equal, i.e. $sigma_1=sigma_2=s$. Hence, you can think of Cohen's $d$ to mean "how big is the difference between the population means in standard deviation units". If the magnitude of the $d$-value exceeds $1$, i.e. $|d|>1$, then the difference between populations can be said to be larger than the difference within populations.






      share|cite|improve this answer
























        0












        0








        0






        One way to compare within and between population differences is by using effect sizes. A popular measure for effect size is Cohen's $d$. Consider two samples with means $mu_1$ and $mu_2$, standard deviations $sigma_1$ and $sigma_2$, and sample sizes $n_1$ and $n_2$. Then Cohen's $d$ is given by
        $$d = frac{mu_1-mu_2}{s}$$
        where $s$ is the pooled standard deviation given by
        $$s = sqrt{frac{(n_1-1)sigma_1^2+(n_2-1)sigma^2_2}{n_1+n_2-2}}.$$
        If there are no samples but the distribution parameters are known, then the pooled standard deviation is given by
        $$s = sqrt{sigma_1^2+sigma_2^2}.$$
        If the standard deviations are equal, i.e. $sigma_1=sigma_2$, then the pooled standard deviation is also equal, i.e. $sigma_1=sigma_2=s$. Hence, you can think of Cohen's $d$ to mean "how big is the difference between the population means in standard deviation units". If the magnitude of the $d$-value exceeds $1$, i.e. $|d|>1$, then the difference between populations can be said to be larger than the difference within populations.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        One way to compare within and between population differences is by using effect sizes. A popular measure for effect size is Cohen's $d$. Consider two samples with means $mu_1$ and $mu_2$, standard deviations $sigma_1$ and $sigma_2$, and sample sizes $n_1$ and $n_2$. Then Cohen's $d$ is given by
        $$d = frac{mu_1-mu_2}{s}$$
        where $s$ is the pooled standard deviation given by
        $$s = sqrt{frac{(n_1-1)sigma_1^2+(n_2-1)sigma^2_2}{n_1+n_2-2}}.$$
        If there are no samples but the distribution parameters are known, then the pooled standard deviation is given by
        $$s = sqrt{sigma_1^2+sigma_2^2}.$$
        If the standard deviations are equal, i.e. $sigma_1=sigma_2$, then the pooled standard deviation is also equal, i.e. $sigma_1=sigma_2=s$. Hence, you can think of Cohen's $d$ to mean "how big is the difference between the population means in standard deviation units". If the magnitude of the $d$-value exceeds $1$, i.e. $|d|>1$, then the difference between populations can be said to be larger than the difference within populations.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Aug 18 '17 at 1:43









        Eff

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