Implications of cigar-shaped bodies having rings?












6












$begingroup$


In my Conworld's system, There is a porous asteroid large enough to be a dwarf planet (but it's mass is too small to pull it into a spherical shape) that has rings. How they got there, nobody knows. But could they have a prolonged orbit around the body without interference, unless from another asteroid?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Dwarf planets are necessarily round..
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Renan That's why I said it's an asteroid
    $endgroup$
    – Greenie E.
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You said "large enough to be a dwarf planet".
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Greenie E.: No, the point has not been invalidated. If the body is large enough to be round (and not distorted by e.g. tidal effects from a nearby planet, or a high rotation rate), it WILL be round.
    $endgroup$
    – jamesqf
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Greenie E. "A small asteroid large enough to be a dwarf planet" is an oxymoron. Astronomers know of many thousands of cataloged asteroids in our solar system. Only one, the very largest one, Ceres, has the qualification to be considered a dwarf planet and is classified as a dwarf planet. Therefore, even in other solar systems, it would be a very large asteroid - not a small asteroid - that would be large enough to be a dwarf planet.
    $endgroup$
    – M. A. Golding
    8 hours ago


















6












$begingroup$


In my Conworld's system, There is a porous asteroid large enough to be a dwarf planet (but it's mass is too small to pull it into a spherical shape) that has rings. How they got there, nobody knows. But could they have a prolonged orbit around the body without interference, unless from another asteroid?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Dwarf planets are necessarily round..
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Renan That's why I said it's an asteroid
    $endgroup$
    – Greenie E.
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You said "large enough to be a dwarf planet".
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Greenie E.: No, the point has not been invalidated. If the body is large enough to be round (and not distorted by e.g. tidal effects from a nearby planet, or a high rotation rate), it WILL be round.
    $endgroup$
    – jamesqf
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Greenie E. "A small asteroid large enough to be a dwarf planet" is an oxymoron. Astronomers know of many thousands of cataloged asteroids in our solar system. Only one, the very largest one, Ceres, has the qualification to be considered a dwarf planet and is classified as a dwarf planet. Therefore, even in other solar systems, it would be a very large asteroid - not a small asteroid - that would be large enough to be a dwarf planet.
    $endgroup$
    – M. A. Golding
    8 hours ago
















6












6








6





$begingroup$


In my Conworld's system, There is a porous asteroid large enough to be a dwarf planet (but it's mass is too small to pull it into a spherical shape) that has rings. How they got there, nobody knows. But could they have a prolonged orbit around the body without interference, unless from another asteroid?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




In my Conworld's system, There is a porous asteroid large enough to be a dwarf planet (but it's mass is too small to pull it into a spherical shape) that has rings. How they got there, nobody knows. But could they have a prolonged orbit around the body without interference, unless from another asteroid?







physics gravity planetary-rings






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 5 hours ago







Greenie E.

















asked 10 hours ago









Greenie E.Greenie E.

1819




1819












  • $begingroup$
    Dwarf planets are necessarily round..
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Renan That's why I said it's an asteroid
    $endgroup$
    – Greenie E.
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You said "large enough to be a dwarf planet".
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Greenie E.: No, the point has not been invalidated. If the body is large enough to be round (and not distorted by e.g. tidal effects from a nearby planet, or a high rotation rate), it WILL be round.
    $endgroup$
    – jamesqf
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Greenie E. "A small asteroid large enough to be a dwarf planet" is an oxymoron. Astronomers know of many thousands of cataloged asteroids in our solar system. Only one, the very largest one, Ceres, has the qualification to be considered a dwarf planet and is classified as a dwarf planet. Therefore, even in other solar systems, it would be a very large asteroid - not a small asteroid - that would be large enough to be a dwarf planet.
    $endgroup$
    – M. A. Golding
    8 hours ago




















  • $begingroup$
    Dwarf planets are necessarily round..
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Renan That's why I said it's an asteroid
    $endgroup$
    – Greenie E.
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You said "large enough to be a dwarf planet".
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Greenie E.: No, the point has not been invalidated. If the body is large enough to be round (and not distorted by e.g. tidal effects from a nearby planet, or a high rotation rate), it WILL be round.
    $endgroup$
    – jamesqf
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Greenie E. "A small asteroid large enough to be a dwarf planet" is an oxymoron. Astronomers know of many thousands of cataloged asteroids in our solar system. Only one, the very largest one, Ceres, has the qualification to be considered a dwarf planet and is classified as a dwarf planet. Therefore, even in other solar systems, it would be a very large asteroid - not a small asteroid - that would be large enough to be a dwarf planet.
    $endgroup$
    – M. A. Golding
    8 hours ago


















$begingroup$
Dwarf planets are necessarily round..
$endgroup$
– Renan
10 hours ago




$begingroup$
Dwarf planets are necessarily round..
$endgroup$
– Renan
10 hours ago












$begingroup$
@Renan That's why I said it's an asteroid
$endgroup$
– Greenie E.
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Renan That's why I said it's an asteroid
$endgroup$
– Greenie E.
8 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
You said "large enough to be a dwarf planet".
$endgroup$
– Renan
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
You said "large enough to be a dwarf planet".
$endgroup$
– Renan
8 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@Greenie E.: No, the point has not been invalidated. If the body is large enough to be round (and not distorted by e.g. tidal effects from a nearby planet, or a high rotation rate), it WILL be round.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Greenie E.: No, the point has not been invalidated. If the body is large enough to be round (and not distorted by e.g. tidal effects from a nearby planet, or a high rotation rate), it WILL be round.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
8 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@Greenie E. "A small asteroid large enough to be a dwarf planet" is an oxymoron. Astronomers know of many thousands of cataloged asteroids in our solar system. Only one, the very largest one, Ceres, has the qualification to be considered a dwarf planet and is classified as a dwarf planet. Therefore, even in other solar systems, it would be a very large asteroid - not a small asteroid - that would be large enough to be a dwarf planet.
$endgroup$
– M. A. Golding
8 hours ago






$begingroup$
@Greenie E. "A small asteroid large enough to be a dwarf planet" is an oxymoron. Astronomers know of many thousands of cataloged asteroids in our solar system. Only one, the very largest one, Ceres, has the qualification to be considered a dwarf planet and is classified as a dwarf planet. Therefore, even in other solar systems, it would be a very large asteroid - not a small asteroid - that would be large enough to be a dwarf planet.
$endgroup$
– M. A. Golding
8 hours ago












3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















9












$begingroup$

Yup! This is possible, and a number of small bodies in the Solar System have rings:





  • Haumea, a dwarf planet in the outer Solar System, was recently discovered to have rings, which lie inside its Roche limit.


  • Chariklo, a very large asteroid, has two known rings.


  • Chiron, another minor planet, is suspected to have rings, but these have not been confirmed.


Minor planets orbit far away from each other and have such weak gravitational fields that they are unlikely to destabilize each other, barring an extreme close encounter.



These rings will eventually dissipate, as all rings do. Viscous spreading is one culprit, and for these minor planets, the effect may be more pronounced because of the nonexistence of shepherd moons around these bodies. In at least Haumea's case, an orbital resonance provides short-term stability, but not long-term stability.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$





















    1












    $begingroup$

    10199 Chariklo



    enter image description here
    Picture Charlico



    Nature bet you to the punch. This is 10199 Chariklo [1], a Centaur astroid orbiting between Saturn and Uranus. It has a radius of 151 km. As you asked for an elongated body, I see no reason why objects like these two couldnt have the same kind of ring system. In fact the artwork shown above could be inaccurate in showing an nearlt spherical body. Many astroids and comets we visited had weird shapes.



    enter image description here



    Eros pic



    enter image description here



    Ultima Thule pic



    As for the zones where the rings could exist, the rings should be within the planets roche limit [2].



    $r = 2.44 * sqrt[3]{frac{pp}{ps}}$



    $r$ = roche limit



    $pp$ = density primary object (your asteroid)



    $ps$ = density secondary object (this was the object ripped appart to form the ring. Assume a sphere with the density of the rock-ice mixture you desire ($3 g/cm^2$ will work as an approximation))



    This should give you the roach limit for a given object. Just place the rings somewhere inside it.



    [1] https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/asteroids-comets-and-meteors/asteroids/10199-chariklo/in-depth/



    [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roche_limit






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$





















      1












      $begingroup$

      Two implications.



      1: A body large enough to be a dwarf planet that was cigar shaped.



      http://www.astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2017/08/the-diameter-of-spherical-bodies




      For these igneous planetesimals, the diameter needed to overcome rigid
      body forces and become round is about 620 miles (1,000km). The main
      belt asteroid Vesta is 326 miles (525km) in diameter. In its early
      history, Vesta’s interior was at least partially molten and may at one
      time have been in hydrostatic equilibrium; however, after cooling,
      Vesta was battered out of round by large impacts.




      So something the right size that is not round has either been "battered out of round" like Vesta, or is of a composition such that it is much less dense than typical asteroids - maybe porous, like Hyperion. Or hollow...





      2: An object with low mass might retain a ring thru electrostatics instead of (just) gravity. Electrostatics are relevant for existing planetary rings. Fast moving dust comprising the ring might be attracted by a combination of electrostatic attraction and gravity, and so persist around this lightweight cigar-shaped planetlet.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$














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        3 Answers
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        active

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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        9












        $begingroup$

        Yup! This is possible, and a number of small bodies in the Solar System have rings:





        • Haumea, a dwarf planet in the outer Solar System, was recently discovered to have rings, which lie inside its Roche limit.


        • Chariklo, a very large asteroid, has two known rings.


        • Chiron, another minor planet, is suspected to have rings, but these have not been confirmed.


        Minor planets orbit far away from each other and have such weak gravitational fields that they are unlikely to destabilize each other, barring an extreme close encounter.



        These rings will eventually dissipate, as all rings do. Viscous spreading is one culprit, and for these minor planets, the effect may be more pronounced because of the nonexistence of shepherd moons around these bodies. In at least Haumea's case, an orbital resonance provides short-term stability, but not long-term stability.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$


















          9












          $begingroup$

          Yup! This is possible, and a number of small bodies in the Solar System have rings:





          • Haumea, a dwarf planet in the outer Solar System, was recently discovered to have rings, which lie inside its Roche limit.


          • Chariklo, a very large asteroid, has two known rings.


          • Chiron, another minor planet, is suspected to have rings, but these have not been confirmed.


          Minor planets orbit far away from each other and have such weak gravitational fields that they are unlikely to destabilize each other, barring an extreme close encounter.



          These rings will eventually dissipate, as all rings do. Viscous spreading is one culprit, and for these minor planets, the effect may be more pronounced because of the nonexistence of shepherd moons around these bodies. In at least Haumea's case, an orbital resonance provides short-term stability, but not long-term stability.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$
















            9












            9








            9





            $begingroup$

            Yup! This is possible, and a number of small bodies in the Solar System have rings:





            • Haumea, a dwarf planet in the outer Solar System, was recently discovered to have rings, which lie inside its Roche limit.


            • Chariklo, a very large asteroid, has two known rings.


            • Chiron, another minor planet, is suspected to have rings, but these have not been confirmed.


            Minor planets orbit far away from each other and have such weak gravitational fields that they are unlikely to destabilize each other, barring an extreme close encounter.



            These rings will eventually dissipate, as all rings do. Viscous spreading is one culprit, and for these minor planets, the effect may be more pronounced because of the nonexistence of shepherd moons around these bodies. In at least Haumea's case, an orbital resonance provides short-term stability, but not long-term stability.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Yup! This is possible, and a number of small bodies in the Solar System have rings:





            • Haumea, a dwarf planet in the outer Solar System, was recently discovered to have rings, which lie inside its Roche limit.


            • Chariklo, a very large asteroid, has two known rings.


            • Chiron, another minor planet, is suspected to have rings, but these have not been confirmed.


            Minor planets orbit far away from each other and have such weak gravitational fields that they are unlikely to destabilize each other, barring an extreme close encounter.



            These rings will eventually dissipate, as all rings do. Viscous spreading is one culprit, and for these minor planets, the effect may be more pronounced because of the nonexistence of shepherd moons around these bodies. In at least Haumea's case, an orbital resonance provides short-term stability, but not long-term stability.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 9 hours ago

























            answered 10 hours ago









            HDE 226868HDE 226868

            66.1k15228429




            66.1k15228429























                1












                $begingroup$

                10199 Chariklo



                enter image description here
                Picture Charlico



                Nature bet you to the punch. This is 10199 Chariklo [1], a Centaur astroid orbiting between Saturn and Uranus. It has a radius of 151 km. As you asked for an elongated body, I see no reason why objects like these two couldnt have the same kind of ring system. In fact the artwork shown above could be inaccurate in showing an nearlt spherical body. Many astroids and comets we visited had weird shapes.



                enter image description here



                Eros pic



                enter image description here



                Ultima Thule pic



                As for the zones where the rings could exist, the rings should be within the planets roche limit [2].



                $r = 2.44 * sqrt[3]{frac{pp}{ps}}$



                $r$ = roche limit



                $pp$ = density primary object (your asteroid)



                $ps$ = density secondary object (this was the object ripped appart to form the ring. Assume a sphere with the density of the rock-ice mixture you desire ($3 g/cm^2$ will work as an approximation))



                This should give you the roach limit for a given object. Just place the rings somewhere inside it.



                [1] https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/asteroids-comets-and-meteors/asteroids/10199-chariklo/in-depth/



                [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roche_limit






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$


















                  1












                  $begingroup$

                  10199 Chariklo



                  enter image description here
                  Picture Charlico



                  Nature bet you to the punch. This is 10199 Chariklo [1], a Centaur astroid orbiting between Saturn and Uranus. It has a radius of 151 km. As you asked for an elongated body, I see no reason why objects like these two couldnt have the same kind of ring system. In fact the artwork shown above could be inaccurate in showing an nearlt spherical body. Many astroids and comets we visited had weird shapes.



                  enter image description here



                  Eros pic



                  enter image description here



                  Ultima Thule pic



                  As for the zones where the rings could exist, the rings should be within the planets roche limit [2].



                  $r = 2.44 * sqrt[3]{frac{pp}{ps}}$



                  $r$ = roche limit



                  $pp$ = density primary object (your asteroid)



                  $ps$ = density secondary object (this was the object ripped appart to form the ring. Assume a sphere with the density of the rock-ice mixture you desire ($3 g/cm^2$ will work as an approximation))



                  This should give you the roach limit for a given object. Just place the rings somewhere inside it.



                  [1] https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/asteroids-comets-and-meteors/asteroids/10199-chariklo/in-depth/



                  [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roche_limit






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$
















                    1












                    1








                    1





                    $begingroup$

                    10199 Chariklo



                    enter image description here
                    Picture Charlico



                    Nature bet you to the punch. This is 10199 Chariklo [1], a Centaur astroid orbiting between Saturn and Uranus. It has a radius of 151 km. As you asked for an elongated body, I see no reason why objects like these two couldnt have the same kind of ring system. In fact the artwork shown above could be inaccurate in showing an nearlt spherical body. Many astroids and comets we visited had weird shapes.



                    enter image description here



                    Eros pic



                    enter image description here



                    Ultima Thule pic



                    As for the zones where the rings could exist, the rings should be within the planets roche limit [2].



                    $r = 2.44 * sqrt[3]{frac{pp}{ps}}$



                    $r$ = roche limit



                    $pp$ = density primary object (your asteroid)



                    $ps$ = density secondary object (this was the object ripped appart to form the ring. Assume a sphere with the density of the rock-ice mixture you desire ($3 g/cm^2$ will work as an approximation))



                    This should give you the roach limit for a given object. Just place the rings somewhere inside it.



                    [1] https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/asteroids-comets-and-meteors/asteroids/10199-chariklo/in-depth/



                    [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roche_limit






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    10199 Chariklo



                    enter image description here
                    Picture Charlico



                    Nature bet you to the punch. This is 10199 Chariklo [1], a Centaur astroid orbiting between Saturn and Uranus. It has a radius of 151 km. As you asked for an elongated body, I see no reason why objects like these two couldnt have the same kind of ring system. In fact the artwork shown above could be inaccurate in showing an nearlt spherical body. Many astroids and comets we visited had weird shapes.



                    enter image description here



                    Eros pic



                    enter image description here



                    Ultima Thule pic



                    As for the zones where the rings could exist, the rings should be within the planets roche limit [2].



                    $r = 2.44 * sqrt[3]{frac{pp}{ps}}$



                    $r$ = roche limit



                    $pp$ = density primary object (your asteroid)



                    $ps$ = density secondary object (this was the object ripped appart to form the ring. Assume a sphere with the density of the rock-ice mixture you desire ($3 g/cm^2$ will work as an approximation))



                    This should give you the roach limit for a given object. Just place the rings somewhere inside it.



                    [1] https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/asteroids-comets-and-meteors/asteroids/10199-chariklo/in-depth/



                    [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roche_limit







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 9 hours ago

























                    answered 9 hours ago









                    TheDyingOfLightTheDyingOfLight

                    1,12513




                    1,12513























                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        Two implications.



                        1: A body large enough to be a dwarf planet that was cigar shaped.



                        http://www.astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2017/08/the-diameter-of-spherical-bodies




                        For these igneous planetesimals, the diameter needed to overcome rigid
                        body forces and become round is about 620 miles (1,000km). The main
                        belt asteroid Vesta is 326 miles (525km) in diameter. In its early
                        history, Vesta’s interior was at least partially molten and may at one
                        time have been in hydrostatic equilibrium; however, after cooling,
                        Vesta was battered out of round by large impacts.




                        So something the right size that is not round has either been "battered out of round" like Vesta, or is of a composition such that it is much less dense than typical asteroids - maybe porous, like Hyperion. Or hollow...





                        2: An object with low mass might retain a ring thru electrostatics instead of (just) gravity. Electrostatics are relevant for existing planetary rings. Fast moving dust comprising the ring might be attracted by a combination of electrostatic attraction and gravity, and so persist around this lightweight cigar-shaped planetlet.






                        share|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$


















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          Two implications.



                          1: A body large enough to be a dwarf planet that was cigar shaped.



                          http://www.astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2017/08/the-diameter-of-spherical-bodies




                          For these igneous planetesimals, the diameter needed to overcome rigid
                          body forces and become round is about 620 miles (1,000km). The main
                          belt asteroid Vesta is 326 miles (525km) in diameter. In its early
                          history, Vesta’s interior was at least partially molten and may at one
                          time have been in hydrostatic equilibrium; however, after cooling,
                          Vesta was battered out of round by large impacts.




                          So something the right size that is not round has either been "battered out of round" like Vesta, or is of a composition such that it is much less dense than typical asteroids - maybe porous, like Hyperion. Or hollow...





                          2: An object with low mass might retain a ring thru electrostatics instead of (just) gravity. Electrostatics are relevant for existing planetary rings. Fast moving dust comprising the ring might be attracted by a combination of electrostatic attraction and gravity, and so persist around this lightweight cigar-shaped planetlet.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$
















                            1












                            1








                            1





                            $begingroup$

                            Two implications.



                            1: A body large enough to be a dwarf planet that was cigar shaped.



                            http://www.astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2017/08/the-diameter-of-spherical-bodies




                            For these igneous planetesimals, the diameter needed to overcome rigid
                            body forces and become round is about 620 miles (1,000km). The main
                            belt asteroid Vesta is 326 miles (525km) in diameter. In its early
                            history, Vesta’s interior was at least partially molten and may at one
                            time have been in hydrostatic equilibrium; however, after cooling,
                            Vesta was battered out of round by large impacts.




                            So something the right size that is not round has either been "battered out of round" like Vesta, or is of a composition such that it is much less dense than typical asteroids - maybe porous, like Hyperion. Or hollow...





                            2: An object with low mass might retain a ring thru electrostatics instead of (just) gravity. Electrostatics are relevant for existing planetary rings. Fast moving dust comprising the ring might be attracted by a combination of electrostatic attraction and gravity, and so persist around this lightweight cigar-shaped planetlet.






                            share|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            Two implications.



                            1: A body large enough to be a dwarf planet that was cigar shaped.



                            http://www.astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2017/08/the-diameter-of-spherical-bodies




                            For these igneous planetesimals, the diameter needed to overcome rigid
                            body forces and become round is about 620 miles (1,000km). The main
                            belt asteroid Vesta is 326 miles (525km) in diameter. In its early
                            history, Vesta’s interior was at least partially molten and may at one
                            time have been in hydrostatic equilibrium; however, after cooling,
                            Vesta was battered out of round by large impacts.




                            So something the right size that is not round has either been "battered out of round" like Vesta, or is of a composition such that it is much less dense than typical asteroids - maybe porous, like Hyperion. Or hollow...





                            2: An object with low mass might retain a ring thru electrostatics instead of (just) gravity. Electrostatics are relevant for existing planetary rings. Fast moving dust comprising the ring might be attracted by a combination of electrostatic attraction and gravity, and so persist around this lightweight cigar-shaped planetlet.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 6 hours ago









                            WillkWillk

                            119k28225498




                            119k28225498






























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