Expected number of rounds, adding $g$ rounds with probability $r$
$begingroup$
This is closely related to the one on the link below, but I cannot really map it to mine...
I play a game, with probability $r$ the game adds $g$ more rounds.
What is the expected number of rounds played?
So, I was trying to thinking it as the game in the link, and then considering that to win a player must win with a difference of $g$, but I am not finding a way to put it.
$h=text{number of rounds played}$
$E(h) = 1 + (1-r)cdot b + rcdot c$
where $b$ is $E$(number of games played if on the last round the player didn't get $g$ extra rounds) and
$c$ is $E$(number of games played if on the last round the player did get $g$ more rounds)
But I have no clue if this makes sense because now I cannot model $b$ and $c$.
I have this feeling that this gets somehow recursive...
like $b = g + (1-r)cdot b + rcdot c$
but I am quite stuck :S
Finding the winning probability of the game
probability combinations mathematical-modeling
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is closely related to the one on the link below, but I cannot really map it to mine...
I play a game, with probability $r$ the game adds $g$ more rounds.
What is the expected number of rounds played?
So, I was trying to thinking it as the game in the link, and then considering that to win a player must win with a difference of $g$, but I am not finding a way to put it.
$h=text{number of rounds played}$
$E(h) = 1 + (1-r)cdot b + rcdot c$
where $b$ is $E$(number of games played if on the last round the player didn't get $g$ extra rounds) and
$c$ is $E$(number of games played if on the last round the player did get $g$ more rounds)
But I have no clue if this makes sense because now I cannot model $b$ and $c$.
I have this feeling that this gets somehow recursive...
like $b = g + (1-r)cdot b + rcdot c$
but I am quite stuck :S
Finding the winning probability of the game
probability combinations mathematical-modeling
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is closely related to the one on the link below, but I cannot really map it to mine...
I play a game, with probability $r$ the game adds $g$ more rounds.
What is the expected number of rounds played?
So, I was trying to thinking it as the game in the link, and then considering that to win a player must win with a difference of $g$, but I am not finding a way to put it.
$h=text{number of rounds played}$
$E(h) = 1 + (1-r)cdot b + rcdot c$
where $b$ is $E$(number of games played if on the last round the player didn't get $g$ extra rounds) and
$c$ is $E$(number of games played if on the last round the player did get $g$ more rounds)
But I have no clue if this makes sense because now I cannot model $b$ and $c$.
I have this feeling that this gets somehow recursive...
like $b = g + (1-r)cdot b + rcdot c$
but I am quite stuck :S
Finding the winning probability of the game
probability combinations mathematical-modeling
$endgroup$
This is closely related to the one on the link below, but I cannot really map it to mine...
I play a game, with probability $r$ the game adds $g$ more rounds.
What is the expected number of rounds played?
So, I was trying to thinking it as the game in the link, and then considering that to win a player must win with a difference of $g$, but I am not finding a way to put it.
$h=text{number of rounds played}$
$E(h) = 1 + (1-r)cdot b + rcdot c$
where $b$ is $E$(number of games played if on the last round the player didn't get $g$ extra rounds) and
$c$ is $E$(number of games played if on the last round the player did get $g$ more rounds)
But I have no clue if this makes sense because now I cannot model $b$ and $c$.
I have this feeling that this gets somehow recursive...
like $b = g + (1-r)cdot b + rcdot c$
but I am quite stuck :S
Finding the winning probability of the game
probability combinations mathematical-modeling
probability combinations mathematical-modeling
asked Dec 18 '18 at 16:23
myradiomyradio
1267
1267
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I am assuming
- there is a counter keeping track of the number of rounds left,
- this counter starts at some number $n$,
- for each step, with probability $(1-r),$ the counter goes down by one, and with probability $r$ it goes up by $g-1$,
- you want the expected number of steps for the counter to reach zero.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I will also assume $rg<1$. If $rg>1$, there is a chance this game will never end, so the expected time is infinite.
Letting $E_n$ be the expected number of rounds when you have $n$ rounds to go, then
$$
E_n=1+(1-r)E_{n-1}+rE_{n+g-1}.
$$
Furthermore, $$E_n=nE_1,$$ because in order to start at $n$ rounds and end at $0$, you need to drop from $k$ to $k-1$ a total of $n$ times, for $k=n,n-1,dots,1$, and dropping from $k$ to $k-1$ is the same as dropping from $1$ to $0$.
You can combine these two equations to solve for $E_n$. The result is
$$
E_n = nE_1=n/(1-rg).
$$
When $rg=1$, the game will certainly end, but the expected end time is infinite.
Here is another explanation why $E_n=nE_1$. Assume the counter starts at $n$.
begin{align}
text{number of rounds until counter hits $0$}
&=quad text{number of rounds until counter hits $n-1$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $n-2$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $n-3$ }\
&quad;vdots\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $1$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $0$ }\
end{align}
The left hand side of the above equation is $E_n$ on average, while each summand on the right is $E_1$ on average; if the counter is at $7$, then the time spent waiting for the counter to reach $6$ for the first time is exactly like starting at $1$ and waiting for the counter to reach $0$, which is $E_1$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Your third statement should read for each step, with probability $textbf{(1-r)}$ goes down by one and with probability $textbf{r}$ goes up by $textbf{g-1}$. (I am changing the last $r-1$ for $g-1$), correct?
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 19 '18 at 1:46
$begingroup$
@myradio I stand corrected, and have made the change.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 19 '18 at 3:20
$begingroup$
Great!, now, I understand the concept but not your sentence starting with "bevause"
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 20 '18 at 1:05
$begingroup$
@myradio See my more detailed explanation in the edit. Note that this argument works precisely because the counter decreases in steps of size one, so it must hit every intermediate value on its path from $n$ to $0$.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 20 '18 at 6:38
add a comment |
Your Answer
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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$begingroup$
I am assuming
- there is a counter keeping track of the number of rounds left,
- this counter starts at some number $n$,
- for each step, with probability $(1-r),$ the counter goes down by one, and with probability $r$ it goes up by $g-1$,
- you want the expected number of steps for the counter to reach zero.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I will also assume $rg<1$. If $rg>1$, there is a chance this game will never end, so the expected time is infinite.
Letting $E_n$ be the expected number of rounds when you have $n$ rounds to go, then
$$
E_n=1+(1-r)E_{n-1}+rE_{n+g-1}.
$$
Furthermore, $$E_n=nE_1,$$ because in order to start at $n$ rounds and end at $0$, you need to drop from $k$ to $k-1$ a total of $n$ times, for $k=n,n-1,dots,1$, and dropping from $k$ to $k-1$ is the same as dropping from $1$ to $0$.
You can combine these two equations to solve for $E_n$. The result is
$$
E_n = nE_1=n/(1-rg).
$$
When $rg=1$, the game will certainly end, but the expected end time is infinite.
Here is another explanation why $E_n=nE_1$. Assume the counter starts at $n$.
begin{align}
text{number of rounds until counter hits $0$}
&=quad text{number of rounds until counter hits $n-1$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $n-2$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $n-3$ }\
&quad;vdots\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $1$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $0$ }\
end{align}
The left hand side of the above equation is $E_n$ on average, while each summand on the right is $E_1$ on average; if the counter is at $7$, then the time spent waiting for the counter to reach $6$ for the first time is exactly like starting at $1$ and waiting for the counter to reach $0$, which is $E_1$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Your third statement should read for each step, with probability $textbf{(1-r)}$ goes down by one and with probability $textbf{r}$ goes up by $textbf{g-1}$. (I am changing the last $r-1$ for $g-1$), correct?
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 19 '18 at 1:46
$begingroup$
@myradio I stand corrected, and have made the change.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 19 '18 at 3:20
$begingroup$
Great!, now, I understand the concept but not your sentence starting with "bevause"
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 20 '18 at 1:05
$begingroup$
@myradio See my more detailed explanation in the edit. Note that this argument works precisely because the counter decreases in steps of size one, so it must hit every intermediate value on its path from $n$ to $0$.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 20 '18 at 6:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am assuming
- there is a counter keeping track of the number of rounds left,
- this counter starts at some number $n$,
- for each step, with probability $(1-r),$ the counter goes down by one, and with probability $r$ it goes up by $g-1$,
- you want the expected number of steps for the counter to reach zero.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I will also assume $rg<1$. If $rg>1$, there is a chance this game will never end, so the expected time is infinite.
Letting $E_n$ be the expected number of rounds when you have $n$ rounds to go, then
$$
E_n=1+(1-r)E_{n-1}+rE_{n+g-1}.
$$
Furthermore, $$E_n=nE_1,$$ because in order to start at $n$ rounds and end at $0$, you need to drop from $k$ to $k-1$ a total of $n$ times, for $k=n,n-1,dots,1$, and dropping from $k$ to $k-1$ is the same as dropping from $1$ to $0$.
You can combine these two equations to solve for $E_n$. The result is
$$
E_n = nE_1=n/(1-rg).
$$
When $rg=1$, the game will certainly end, but the expected end time is infinite.
Here is another explanation why $E_n=nE_1$. Assume the counter starts at $n$.
begin{align}
text{number of rounds until counter hits $0$}
&=quad text{number of rounds until counter hits $n-1$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $n-2$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $n-3$ }\
&quad;vdots\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $1$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $0$ }\
end{align}
The left hand side of the above equation is $E_n$ on average, while each summand on the right is $E_1$ on average; if the counter is at $7$, then the time spent waiting for the counter to reach $6$ for the first time is exactly like starting at $1$ and waiting for the counter to reach $0$, which is $E_1$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Your third statement should read for each step, with probability $textbf{(1-r)}$ goes down by one and with probability $textbf{r}$ goes up by $textbf{g-1}$. (I am changing the last $r-1$ for $g-1$), correct?
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 19 '18 at 1:46
$begingroup$
@myradio I stand corrected, and have made the change.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 19 '18 at 3:20
$begingroup$
Great!, now, I understand the concept but not your sentence starting with "bevause"
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 20 '18 at 1:05
$begingroup$
@myradio See my more detailed explanation in the edit. Note that this argument works precisely because the counter decreases in steps of size one, so it must hit every intermediate value on its path from $n$ to $0$.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 20 '18 at 6:38
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am assuming
- there is a counter keeping track of the number of rounds left,
- this counter starts at some number $n$,
- for each step, with probability $(1-r),$ the counter goes down by one, and with probability $r$ it goes up by $g-1$,
- you want the expected number of steps for the counter to reach zero.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I will also assume $rg<1$. If $rg>1$, there is a chance this game will never end, so the expected time is infinite.
Letting $E_n$ be the expected number of rounds when you have $n$ rounds to go, then
$$
E_n=1+(1-r)E_{n-1}+rE_{n+g-1}.
$$
Furthermore, $$E_n=nE_1,$$ because in order to start at $n$ rounds and end at $0$, you need to drop from $k$ to $k-1$ a total of $n$ times, for $k=n,n-1,dots,1$, and dropping from $k$ to $k-1$ is the same as dropping from $1$ to $0$.
You can combine these two equations to solve for $E_n$. The result is
$$
E_n = nE_1=n/(1-rg).
$$
When $rg=1$, the game will certainly end, but the expected end time is infinite.
Here is another explanation why $E_n=nE_1$. Assume the counter starts at $n$.
begin{align}
text{number of rounds until counter hits $0$}
&=quad text{number of rounds until counter hits $n-1$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $n-2$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $n-3$ }\
&quad;vdots\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $1$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $0$ }\
end{align}
The left hand side of the above equation is $E_n$ on average, while each summand on the right is $E_1$ on average; if the counter is at $7$, then the time spent waiting for the counter to reach $6$ for the first time is exactly like starting at $1$ and waiting for the counter to reach $0$, which is $E_1$.
$endgroup$
I am assuming
- there is a counter keeping track of the number of rounds left,
- this counter starts at some number $n$,
- for each step, with probability $(1-r),$ the counter goes down by one, and with probability $r$ it goes up by $g-1$,
- you want the expected number of steps for the counter to reach zero.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I will also assume $rg<1$. If $rg>1$, there is a chance this game will never end, so the expected time is infinite.
Letting $E_n$ be the expected number of rounds when you have $n$ rounds to go, then
$$
E_n=1+(1-r)E_{n-1}+rE_{n+g-1}.
$$
Furthermore, $$E_n=nE_1,$$ because in order to start at $n$ rounds and end at $0$, you need to drop from $k$ to $k-1$ a total of $n$ times, for $k=n,n-1,dots,1$, and dropping from $k$ to $k-1$ is the same as dropping from $1$ to $0$.
You can combine these two equations to solve for $E_n$. The result is
$$
E_n = nE_1=n/(1-rg).
$$
When $rg=1$, the game will certainly end, but the expected end time is infinite.
Here is another explanation why $E_n=nE_1$. Assume the counter starts at $n$.
begin{align}
text{number of rounds until counter hits $0$}
&=quad text{number of rounds until counter hits $n-1$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $n-2$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $n-3$ }\
&quad;vdots\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $1$ }\
&quad+ text{number of rounds after that until counter hits $0$ }\
end{align}
The left hand side of the above equation is $E_n$ on average, while each summand on the right is $E_1$ on average; if the counter is at $7$, then the time spent waiting for the counter to reach $6$ for the first time is exactly like starting at $1$ and waiting for the counter to reach $0$, which is $E_1$.
edited Dec 20 '18 at 6:36
answered Dec 18 '18 at 17:23
Mike EarnestMike Earnest
24.9k22151
24.9k22151
1
$begingroup$
Your third statement should read for each step, with probability $textbf{(1-r)}$ goes down by one and with probability $textbf{r}$ goes up by $textbf{g-1}$. (I am changing the last $r-1$ for $g-1$), correct?
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 19 '18 at 1:46
$begingroup$
@myradio I stand corrected, and have made the change.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 19 '18 at 3:20
$begingroup$
Great!, now, I understand the concept but not your sentence starting with "bevause"
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 20 '18 at 1:05
$begingroup$
@myradio See my more detailed explanation in the edit. Note that this argument works precisely because the counter decreases in steps of size one, so it must hit every intermediate value on its path from $n$ to $0$.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 20 '18 at 6:38
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Your third statement should read for each step, with probability $textbf{(1-r)}$ goes down by one and with probability $textbf{r}$ goes up by $textbf{g-1}$. (I am changing the last $r-1$ for $g-1$), correct?
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 19 '18 at 1:46
$begingroup$
@myradio I stand corrected, and have made the change.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 19 '18 at 3:20
$begingroup$
Great!, now, I understand the concept but not your sentence starting with "bevause"
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 20 '18 at 1:05
$begingroup$
@myradio See my more detailed explanation in the edit. Note that this argument works precisely because the counter decreases in steps of size one, so it must hit every intermediate value on its path from $n$ to $0$.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 20 '18 at 6:38
1
1
$begingroup$
Your third statement should read for each step, with probability $textbf{(1-r)}$ goes down by one and with probability $textbf{r}$ goes up by $textbf{g-1}$. (I am changing the last $r-1$ for $g-1$), correct?
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 19 '18 at 1:46
$begingroup$
Your third statement should read for each step, with probability $textbf{(1-r)}$ goes down by one and with probability $textbf{r}$ goes up by $textbf{g-1}$. (I am changing the last $r-1$ for $g-1$), correct?
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 19 '18 at 1:46
$begingroup$
@myradio I stand corrected, and have made the change.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 19 '18 at 3:20
$begingroup$
@myradio I stand corrected, and have made the change.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 19 '18 at 3:20
$begingroup$
Great!, now, I understand the concept but not your sentence starting with "bevause"
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 20 '18 at 1:05
$begingroup$
Great!, now, I understand the concept but not your sentence starting with "bevause"
$endgroup$
– myradio
Dec 20 '18 at 1:05
$begingroup$
@myradio See my more detailed explanation in the edit. Note that this argument works precisely because the counter decreases in steps of size one, so it must hit every intermediate value on its path from $n$ to $0$.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 20 '18 at 6:38
$begingroup$
@myradio See my more detailed explanation in the edit. Note that this argument works precisely because the counter decreases in steps of size one, so it must hit every intermediate value on its path from $n$ to $0$.
$endgroup$
– Mike Earnest
Dec 20 '18 at 6:38
add a comment |
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