Long term vs short term gain (rolling until any repeated value)?
$begingroup$
I was at an interview workshop today and was posed this question:
I keep rolling a die, and my score is the sum of all my rolls. However, if I roll a value I had rolled before, I lose all. What is the optimal strategy?
My attempt is as follows. Suppose I roll $x_1$ on the first turn. On my next turn, my expected gain is
$$frac{21-x_1}{6} - frac{x_1}{6},$$
because I have a $1/6$ chance of rerolling and losing $x_1$, and the remainder of rolls sum up to $21-x_1$, each with probability $1/6$.
Now, suppose my second roll is $x_2$. On the third turn, my expected gain would be
$$frac{21-x_1-x_2}{6}-frac{x_1+x_2}{3}$$
for similar reasons, this time that there is a $2/6=1/3$ instead of $1/6$ chance.
My question is therefore this – given that my analysis was correct (which I am not sure about), how does this translate to a strategy? It is clear that I should roll a second time for any $x_1$, but what does this imply about future rolls? Given that $x_1+x_2=7$ results in an expected gain of exactly zero, should this call for an additional roll if I have hit a sum of $7$? I am also very confused on how to calculate the expected “short-term gain” as well, could someone discuss this? Thank you!
probability statistics game-theory dice
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I was at an interview workshop today and was posed this question:
I keep rolling a die, and my score is the sum of all my rolls. However, if I roll a value I had rolled before, I lose all. What is the optimal strategy?
My attempt is as follows. Suppose I roll $x_1$ on the first turn. On my next turn, my expected gain is
$$frac{21-x_1}{6} - frac{x_1}{6},$$
because I have a $1/6$ chance of rerolling and losing $x_1$, and the remainder of rolls sum up to $21-x_1$, each with probability $1/6$.
Now, suppose my second roll is $x_2$. On the third turn, my expected gain would be
$$frac{21-x_1-x_2}{6}-frac{x_1+x_2}{3}$$
for similar reasons, this time that there is a $2/6=1/3$ instead of $1/6$ chance.
My question is therefore this – given that my analysis was correct (which I am not sure about), how does this translate to a strategy? It is clear that I should roll a second time for any $x_1$, but what does this imply about future rolls? Given that $x_1+x_2=7$ results in an expected gain of exactly zero, should this call for an additional roll if I have hit a sum of $7$? I am also very confused on how to calculate the expected “short-term gain” as well, could someone discuss this? Thank you!
probability statistics game-theory dice
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I was at an interview workshop today and was posed this question:
I keep rolling a die, and my score is the sum of all my rolls. However, if I roll a value I had rolled before, I lose all. What is the optimal strategy?
My attempt is as follows. Suppose I roll $x_1$ on the first turn. On my next turn, my expected gain is
$$frac{21-x_1}{6} - frac{x_1}{6},$$
because I have a $1/6$ chance of rerolling and losing $x_1$, and the remainder of rolls sum up to $21-x_1$, each with probability $1/6$.
Now, suppose my second roll is $x_2$. On the third turn, my expected gain would be
$$frac{21-x_1-x_2}{6}-frac{x_1+x_2}{3}$$
for similar reasons, this time that there is a $2/6=1/3$ instead of $1/6$ chance.
My question is therefore this – given that my analysis was correct (which I am not sure about), how does this translate to a strategy? It is clear that I should roll a second time for any $x_1$, but what does this imply about future rolls? Given that $x_1+x_2=7$ results in an expected gain of exactly zero, should this call for an additional roll if I have hit a sum of $7$? I am also very confused on how to calculate the expected “short-term gain” as well, could someone discuss this? Thank you!
probability statistics game-theory dice
$endgroup$
I was at an interview workshop today and was posed this question:
I keep rolling a die, and my score is the sum of all my rolls. However, if I roll a value I had rolled before, I lose all. What is the optimal strategy?
My attempt is as follows. Suppose I roll $x_1$ on the first turn. On my next turn, my expected gain is
$$frac{21-x_1}{6} - frac{x_1}{6},$$
because I have a $1/6$ chance of rerolling and losing $x_1$, and the remainder of rolls sum up to $21-x_1$, each with probability $1/6$.
Now, suppose my second roll is $x_2$. On the third turn, my expected gain would be
$$frac{21-x_1-x_2}{6}-frac{x_1+x_2}{3}$$
for similar reasons, this time that there is a $2/6=1/3$ instead of $1/6$ chance.
My question is therefore this – given that my analysis was correct (which I am not sure about), how does this translate to a strategy? It is clear that I should roll a second time for any $x_1$, but what does this imply about future rolls? Given that $x_1+x_2=7$ results in an expected gain of exactly zero, should this call for an additional roll if I have hit a sum of $7$? I am also very confused on how to calculate the expected “short-term gain” as well, could someone discuss this? Thank you!
probability statistics game-theory dice
probability statistics game-theory dice
edited Dec 26 '18 at 17:44
user107224
asked Nov 21 '18 at 2:00
user107224user107224
475314
475314
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Your analysis only takes into account the possible increase in your score that you get from one more throw (call this the 'immediate increase') rather than from potentially multiple more throws (the 'long-term' increase). As such, your analysis could give the wrong advice and tell you to stop if the expected immediate increase would be less than the expected loss of losing everything, even though your expected long-term increase could actually outweigh that loss.
So, instead of considering what you should do after rolling $1$ die, and then $2$, etc., it is better to first find the point where there is no long-term increase anymore, and then work your way back.
Fortunately, this end point is easy to establish, in that you should never go beyond three rolls: even if you only scored the mimimum sum so far, which would be $1+2+3=6$, you have a probability of $frac{1}{2}$ of losing everything, and so to beat that, you'd need at least two more throws without losing everything, which has a chance of far less than $frac{1}{2}$
Ok, but should you ever go beyond two rolls? Given that we now have established that you should never go beyond three rolls, any increase at this point will only be from any immediate increase.
As such, your formula for having rolled two dice actually turns out to be correct: if after two rolls you have a score of $x$, then the expected gain is
$frac{2}{3}cdotfrac{21-x}{4} - frac{1}{3}cdot
x$, which has a breaking point exactly at $x=7$ ... and what that means is that if after two rolls you have a score below $7$ you should roll again, if the score is above $7$, you should stop, and if your score is exactly $7$, it doesn't matter what you do.
Finally, then, we can move to the situation where you have rolled just $1$ die. Now, here there is actually some potential long-term gain to be had from rolling again, which your formula does not take into account, but since the expected immediate gain already outweighs the expected loss for all possible scores, I agree with you that you should indeed always roll again.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Hi, before I accept this, may I ask if there’s a more formal mathematical statement to the long-term gain? While I see what you mean, it seems like hand-wavy statement
$endgroup$
– user107224
Nov 21 '18 at 10:53
$begingroup$
sorry but after re-reading your answer on the long term gain I still don’t really get it, could you explain for general throws x_i?
$endgroup$
– user107224
Dec 19 '18 at 2:35
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3007152%2flong-term-vs-short-term-gain-rolling-until-any-repeated-value%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Your analysis only takes into account the possible increase in your score that you get from one more throw (call this the 'immediate increase') rather than from potentially multiple more throws (the 'long-term' increase). As such, your analysis could give the wrong advice and tell you to stop if the expected immediate increase would be less than the expected loss of losing everything, even though your expected long-term increase could actually outweigh that loss.
So, instead of considering what you should do after rolling $1$ die, and then $2$, etc., it is better to first find the point where there is no long-term increase anymore, and then work your way back.
Fortunately, this end point is easy to establish, in that you should never go beyond three rolls: even if you only scored the mimimum sum so far, which would be $1+2+3=6$, you have a probability of $frac{1}{2}$ of losing everything, and so to beat that, you'd need at least two more throws without losing everything, which has a chance of far less than $frac{1}{2}$
Ok, but should you ever go beyond two rolls? Given that we now have established that you should never go beyond three rolls, any increase at this point will only be from any immediate increase.
As such, your formula for having rolled two dice actually turns out to be correct: if after two rolls you have a score of $x$, then the expected gain is
$frac{2}{3}cdotfrac{21-x}{4} - frac{1}{3}cdot
x$, which has a breaking point exactly at $x=7$ ... and what that means is that if after two rolls you have a score below $7$ you should roll again, if the score is above $7$, you should stop, and if your score is exactly $7$, it doesn't matter what you do.
Finally, then, we can move to the situation where you have rolled just $1$ die. Now, here there is actually some potential long-term gain to be had from rolling again, which your formula does not take into account, but since the expected immediate gain already outweighs the expected loss for all possible scores, I agree with you that you should indeed always roll again.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Hi, before I accept this, may I ask if there’s a more formal mathematical statement to the long-term gain? While I see what you mean, it seems like hand-wavy statement
$endgroup$
– user107224
Nov 21 '18 at 10:53
$begingroup$
sorry but after re-reading your answer on the long term gain I still don’t really get it, could you explain for general throws x_i?
$endgroup$
– user107224
Dec 19 '18 at 2:35
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your analysis only takes into account the possible increase in your score that you get from one more throw (call this the 'immediate increase') rather than from potentially multiple more throws (the 'long-term' increase). As such, your analysis could give the wrong advice and tell you to stop if the expected immediate increase would be less than the expected loss of losing everything, even though your expected long-term increase could actually outweigh that loss.
So, instead of considering what you should do after rolling $1$ die, and then $2$, etc., it is better to first find the point where there is no long-term increase anymore, and then work your way back.
Fortunately, this end point is easy to establish, in that you should never go beyond three rolls: even if you only scored the mimimum sum so far, which would be $1+2+3=6$, you have a probability of $frac{1}{2}$ of losing everything, and so to beat that, you'd need at least two more throws without losing everything, which has a chance of far less than $frac{1}{2}$
Ok, but should you ever go beyond two rolls? Given that we now have established that you should never go beyond three rolls, any increase at this point will only be from any immediate increase.
As such, your formula for having rolled two dice actually turns out to be correct: if after two rolls you have a score of $x$, then the expected gain is
$frac{2}{3}cdotfrac{21-x}{4} - frac{1}{3}cdot
x$, which has a breaking point exactly at $x=7$ ... and what that means is that if after two rolls you have a score below $7$ you should roll again, if the score is above $7$, you should stop, and if your score is exactly $7$, it doesn't matter what you do.
Finally, then, we can move to the situation where you have rolled just $1$ die. Now, here there is actually some potential long-term gain to be had from rolling again, which your formula does not take into account, but since the expected immediate gain already outweighs the expected loss for all possible scores, I agree with you that you should indeed always roll again.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Hi, before I accept this, may I ask if there’s a more formal mathematical statement to the long-term gain? While I see what you mean, it seems like hand-wavy statement
$endgroup$
– user107224
Nov 21 '18 at 10:53
$begingroup$
sorry but after re-reading your answer on the long term gain I still don’t really get it, could you explain for general throws x_i?
$endgroup$
– user107224
Dec 19 '18 at 2:35
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your analysis only takes into account the possible increase in your score that you get from one more throw (call this the 'immediate increase') rather than from potentially multiple more throws (the 'long-term' increase). As such, your analysis could give the wrong advice and tell you to stop if the expected immediate increase would be less than the expected loss of losing everything, even though your expected long-term increase could actually outweigh that loss.
So, instead of considering what you should do after rolling $1$ die, and then $2$, etc., it is better to first find the point where there is no long-term increase anymore, and then work your way back.
Fortunately, this end point is easy to establish, in that you should never go beyond three rolls: even if you only scored the mimimum sum so far, which would be $1+2+3=6$, you have a probability of $frac{1}{2}$ of losing everything, and so to beat that, you'd need at least two more throws without losing everything, which has a chance of far less than $frac{1}{2}$
Ok, but should you ever go beyond two rolls? Given that we now have established that you should never go beyond three rolls, any increase at this point will only be from any immediate increase.
As such, your formula for having rolled two dice actually turns out to be correct: if after two rolls you have a score of $x$, then the expected gain is
$frac{2}{3}cdotfrac{21-x}{4} - frac{1}{3}cdot
x$, which has a breaking point exactly at $x=7$ ... and what that means is that if after two rolls you have a score below $7$ you should roll again, if the score is above $7$, you should stop, and if your score is exactly $7$, it doesn't matter what you do.
Finally, then, we can move to the situation where you have rolled just $1$ die. Now, here there is actually some potential long-term gain to be had from rolling again, which your formula does not take into account, but since the expected immediate gain already outweighs the expected loss for all possible scores, I agree with you that you should indeed always roll again.
$endgroup$
Your analysis only takes into account the possible increase in your score that you get from one more throw (call this the 'immediate increase') rather than from potentially multiple more throws (the 'long-term' increase). As such, your analysis could give the wrong advice and tell you to stop if the expected immediate increase would be less than the expected loss of losing everything, even though your expected long-term increase could actually outweigh that loss.
So, instead of considering what you should do after rolling $1$ die, and then $2$, etc., it is better to first find the point where there is no long-term increase anymore, and then work your way back.
Fortunately, this end point is easy to establish, in that you should never go beyond three rolls: even if you only scored the mimimum sum so far, which would be $1+2+3=6$, you have a probability of $frac{1}{2}$ of losing everything, and so to beat that, you'd need at least two more throws without losing everything, which has a chance of far less than $frac{1}{2}$
Ok, but should you ever go beyond two rolls? Given that we now have established that you should never go beyond three rolls, any increase at this point will only be from any immediate increase.
As such, your formula for having rolled two dice actually turns out to be correct: if after two rolls you have a score of $x$, then the expected gain is
$frac{2}{3}cdotfrac{21-x}{4} - frac{1}{3}cdot
x$, which has a breaking point exactly at $x=7$ ... and what that means is that if after two rolls you have a score below $7$ you should roll again, if the score is above $7$, you should stop, and if your score is exactly $7$, it doesn't matter what you do.
Finally, then, we can move to the situation where you have rolled just $1$ die. Now, here there is actually some potential long-term gain to be had from rolling again, which your formula does not take into account, but since the expected immediate gain already outweighs the expected loss for all possible scores, I agree with you that you should indeed always roll again.
edited Nov 21 '18 at 3:48
answered Nov 21 '18 at 3:38
Bram28Bram28
64.5k44793
64.5k44793
$begingroup$
Hi, before I accept this, may I ask if there’s a more formal mathematical statement to the long-term gain? While I see what you mean, it seems like hand-wavy statement
$endgroup$
– user107224
Nov 21 '18 at 10:53
$begingroup$
sorry but after re-reading your answer on the long term gain I still don’t really get it, could you explain for general throws x_i?
$endgroup$
– user107224
Dec 19 '18 at 2:35
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Hi, before I accept this, may I ask if there’s a more formal mathematical statement to the long-term gain? While I see what you mean, it seems like hand-wavy statement
$endgroup$
– user107224
Nov 21 '18 at 10:53
$begingroup$
sorry but after re-reading your answer on the long term gain I still don’t really get it, could you explain for general throws x_i?
$endgroup$
– user107224
Dec 19 '18 at 2:35
$begingroup$
Hi, before I accept this, may I ask if there’s a more formal mathematical statement to the long-term gain? While I see what you mean, it seems like hand-wavy statement
$endgroup$
– user107224
Nov 21 '18 at 10:53
$begingroup$
Hi, before I accept this, may I ask if there’s a more formal mathematical statement to the long-term gain? While I see what you mean, it seems like hand-wavy statement
$endgroup$
– user107224
Nov 21 '18 at 10:53
$begingroup$
sorry but after re-reading your answer on the long term gain I still don’t really get it, could you explain for general throws x_i?
$endgroup$
– user107224
Dec 19 '18 at 2:35
$begingroup$
sorry but after re-reading your answer on the long term gain I still don’t really get it, could you explain for general throws x_i?
$endgroup$
– user107224
Dec 19 '18 at 2:35
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3007152%2flong-term-vs-short-term-gain-rolling-until-any-repeated-value%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown