Curvature of curve: equivalence between tangent vector and angle definitions
I know that curvature for some curve $C$ defined parametrically is:
$$kappa=left|{dvec{T}over ds}right|$$
Which basically is the rate at which the tangent vector to the curve changes, as the arclength of the curve changes.
In another source, I saw the definition of curvature as the following:
If $P_1$ and $P_2$ are two points on the curve, $|P_1P_2|$ is the arclength between those two points, and $Phi$ is the limit of the angle between tangent vectors at the points $P_1$ and $P_2$ (as it goes to zero I assume), then the curvature is defined as:
$$kappa=lim_{|P_1P_2|to 0}{Phiover |P_1P_2|}$$
Which basically means, the rate at which the angle of tangent vectors in global frame of reference changes, as the arclength of the curve changes.
I assume that this second definition can be rewritten using the notation from the first example as:
$$kappa={dphiover ds}$$
Where $phi$ is the angle between the vector tangent to the curve, and some constant global axis of reference (which could be the x axis, but realy it could be any line or vector on the same plane).
Given the second (weird in my opinion) definition of curvature, I can't see how those two definitions can be equivalent. Maybe they are not, I don't know. May be they are; if yes, how?
Also, here's a picture of the section from the book where the second definition appears in (it's not in English):
Note that the text agrees with yet another definition of curvature, which I am aware of: $kappa=frac1r$, where $r$ is radius of curvature.
calculus differential-geometry vectors curves curvature
add a comment |
I know that curvature for some curve $C$ defined parametrically is:
$$kappa=left|{dvec{T}over ds}right|$$
Which basically is the rate at which the tangent vector to the curve changes, as the arclength of the curve changes.
In another source, I saw the definition of curvature as the following:
If $P_1$ and $P_2$ are two points on the curve, $|P_1P_2|$ is the arclength between those two points, and $Phi$ is the limit of the angle between tangent vectors at the points $P_1$ and $P_2$ (as it goes to zero I assume), then the curvature is defined as:
$$kappa=lim_{|P_1P_2|to 0}{Phiover |P_1P_2|}$$
Which basically means, the rate at which the angle of tangent vectors in global frame of reference changes, as the arclength of the curve changes.
I assume that this second definition can be rewritten using the notation from the first example as:
$$kappa={dphiover ds}$$
Where $phi$ is the angle between the vector tangent to the curve, and some constant global axis of reference (which could be the x axis, but realy it could be any line or vector on the same plane).
Given the second (weird in my opinion) definition of curvature, I can't see how those two definitions can be equivalent. Maybe they are not, I don't know. May be they are; if yes, how?
Also, here's a picture of the section from the book where the second definition appears in (it's not in English):
Note that the text agrees with yet another definition of curvature, which I am aware of: $kappa=frac1r$, where $r$ is radius of curvature.
calculus differential-geometry vectors curves curvature
add a comment |
I know that curvature for some curve $C$ defined parametrically is:
$$kappa=left|{dvec{T}over ds}right|$$
Which basically is the rate at which the tangent vector to the curve changes, as the arclength of the curve changes.
In another source, I saw the definition of curvature as the following:
If $P_1$ and $P_2$ are two points on the curve, $|P_1P_2|$ is the arclength between those two points, and $Phi$ is the limit of the angle between tangent vectors at the points $P_1$ and $P_2$ (as it goes to zero I assume), then the curvature is defined as:
$$kappa=lim_{|P_1P_2|to 0}{Phiover |P_1P_2|}$$
Which basically means, the rate at which the angle of tangent vectors in global frame of reference changes, as the arclength of the curve changes.
I assume that this second definition can be rewritten using the notation from the first example as:
$$kappa={dphiover ds}$$
Where $phi$ is the angle between the vector tangent to the curve, and some constant global axis of reference (which could be the x axis, but realy it could be any line or vector on the same plane).
Given the second (weird in my opinion) definition of curvature, I can't see how those two definitions can be equivalent. Maybe they are not, I don't know. May be they are; if yes, how?
Also, here's a picture of the section from the book where the second definition appears in (it's not in English):
Note that the text agrees with yet another definition of curvature, which I am aware of: $kappa=frac1r$, where $r$ is radius of curvature.
calculus differential-geometry vectors curves curvature
I know that curvature for some curve $C$ defined parametrically is:
$$kappa=left|{dvec{T}over ds}right|$$
Which basically is the rate at which the tangent vector to the curve changes, as the arclength of the curve changes.
In another source, I saw the definition of curvature as the following:
If $P_1$ and $P_2$ are two points on the curve, $|P_1P_2|$ is the arclength between those two points, and $Phi$ is the limit of the angle between tangent vectors at the points $P_1$ and $P_2$ (as it goes to zero I assume), then the curvature is defined as:
$$kappa=lim_{|P_1P_2|to 0}{Phiover |P_1P_2|}$$
Which basically means, the rate at which the angle of tangent vectors in global frame of reference changes, as the arclength of the curve changes.
I assume that this second definition can be rewritten using the notation from the first example as:
$$kappa={dphiover ds}$$
Where $phi$ is the angle between the vector tangent to the curve, and some constant global axis of reference (which could be the x axis, but realy it could be any line or vector on the same plane).
Given the second (weird in my opinion) definition of curvature, I can't see how those two definitions can be equivalent. Maybe they are not, I don't know. May be they are; if yes, how?
Also, here's a picture of the section from the book where the second definition appears in (it's not in English):
Note that the text agrees with yet another definition of curvature, which I am aware of: $kappa=frac1r$, where $r$ is radius of curvature.
calculus differential-geometry vectors curves curvature
calculus differential-geometry vectors curves curvature
edited 1 hour ago
Kenny Wong
17k21135
17k21135
asked 2 hours ago
KKZiomek
2,0311339
2,0311339
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
Let's work with the first definition. We have
begin{align} kappa (s) &= left| frac{dvec T}{ds}(s)right| \ &= lim_{delta sto 0}frac 1 {delta s}left| vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s) right| \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{(vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s)).(vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s))} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{| vec T(s + delta s)|^2 + | vec T(s) |^2 - 2vec T(s).vec T(s + delta s)}end{align}
But the curve is parameterised by arc length! So
$$ | vec T(s + delta s)|^2 = | vec T(s)|^2 = 1$$
and
$$ vec T(s).vec T(s + delta s) = cos Phi(s, s + delta s),$$
where $Phi(s, s + delta s)$ is the angle between $vec T(s)$ and $vec T(s + delta s)$.
Plugging this in, we get
begin{align}
kappa &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{2 - 2 cos Phi(s, s + delta s)} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} 2 sin left( frac { Phi(s, s + delta s) } {2}right) \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times frac{sin left( frac { Phi(s, s + delta s) } {2}right)}{frac{Phi(s, s + delta s)}{2}}
end{align}
Clearly, $lim_{delta s to 0} Phi(s, s + delta s) = 0$, so
begin{align}
kappa &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times lim_{Phi to 0} frac{sin left( frac { Phi } {2}right)}{frac{Phi}{2}} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times 1 \ &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s}end{align}
which agrees with the second definition.
How do you get from $sqrt{2-2cosPhi}$ to $2sinleft(frac{Phi}{2}right)$?
– Noble Mushtak
1 hour ago
1
@NobleMushtak I used $1 - cos x = 2 sin^2 (tfrac x 2)$.
– Kenny Wong
1 hour ago
add a comment |
By your first statement, $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$ where $kappa$ is the curvature and $N$ is the unit normal vector. Now, let's consider $T(s)$ and $T(s+Delta s)$, so that we can compare the angles between tangent vectors. Now, $T(s)$, $T(s+Delta s)$, and $N(s)$ are all unit vectors, so we can draw the following picture representing all of these vectors:
Here, $Delta theta$ is the angle between the two tangent vectors and $Delta T=T(s+Delta s)-T(s)$. From the diagram, we can find that $Delta Tcdot T(s)=1-cos Delta theta$ and $Delta Tcdot N(s)=sin dtheta$. From the x-component, we get the following equation:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot T(s)=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{Delta Tcdot T(s)}{Delta theta}=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{1-cos(Delta theta)}{Delta theta}=0$$
This was pretty obvious since $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$ is orthogonal to $T(s)$, so nothing new there. However, from the y-component, we get:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot N(s)=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{Delta Tcdot N(s)}{Delta theta}=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{sin(Delta theta)}{Delta theta}=1$$
Now, let's use chain rule to figure out what $frac{dT}{dtheta}$ is:
$$frac{dT}{ds}=kappa(s)N(s)=frac{dT}{dtheta}frac{dtheta}{ds} rightarrow frac{dT}{dtheta}=frac{kappa(s)N(s)}{frac{dtheta}{ds}}$$
Finally, let's plug this value for $frac{dT}{dtheta}$ into the equation with the dot product:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot N(s)=1rightarrow frac{kappa(s)N(s)cdot N(s)}{frac{dtheta}{ds}}=1rightarrow frac{dtheta}{ds}=kappa(s)N(s)cdot N(s)=kappa(s)$$
(Note that the last step uses $N(s)cdot N(s)=1$ since $N(s)$ is a unit vector.)
At this point, we have shown $frac{dtheta}{ds}=kappa(s)$, which is what we originally set out to prove. Q.E.D.
Of course, this isn't exactly a formal proof since it assumes $T(s+Delta s)$ is in the plane spanned by $T(s)$ and $N(s)$, which isn't necessarily true. However, I think this is a fair approximation since $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$, so $T(s+Delta s)approx T(s)+Delta sT'(s)=T(s)+[Delta skappa(s)]N(s)$. In any case, I feel like this geometric argument gives a better visual intuition for why $|T'(s)|=frac{dtheta}{ds}$.
Thank you for the answer. I accepted the other answer only because it was more straightforward, at least to me
– KKZiomek
20 mins ago
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3053446%2fcurvature-of-curve-equivalence-between-tangent-vector-and-angle-definitions%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Let's work with the first definition. We have
begin{align} kappa (s) &= left| frac{dvec T}{ds}(s)right| \ &= lim_{delta sto 0}frac 1 {delta s}left| vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s) right| \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{(vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s)).(vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s))} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{| vec T(s + delta s)|^2 + | vec T(s) |^2 - 2vec T(s).vec T(s + delta s)}end{align}
But the curve is parameterised by arc length! So
$$ | vec T(s + delta s)|^2 = | vec T(s)|^2 = 1$$
and
$$ vec T(s).vec T(s + delta s) = cos Phi(s, s + delta s),$$
where $Phi(s, s + delta s)$ is the angle between $vec T(s)$ and $vec T(s + delta s)$.
Plugging this in, we get
begin{align}
kappa &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{2 - 2 cos Phi(s, s + delta s)} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} 2 sin left( frac { Phi(s, s + delta s) } {2}right) \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times frac{sin left( frac { Phi(s, s + delta s) } {2}right)}{frac{Phi(s, s + delta s)}{2}}
end{align}
Clearly, $lim_{delta s to 0} Phi(s, s + delta s) = 0$, so
begin{align}
kappa &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times lim_{Phi to 0} frac{sin left( frac { Phi } {2}right)}{frac{Phi}{2}} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times 1 \ &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s}end{align}
which agrees with the second definition.
How do you get from $sqrt{2-2cosPhi}$ to $2sinleft(frac{Phi}{2}right)$?
– Noble Mushtak
1 hour ago
1
@NobleMushtak I used $1 - cos x = 2 sin^2 (tfrac x 2)$.
– Kenny Wong
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Let's work with the first definition. We have
begin{align} kappa (s) &= left| frac{dvec T}{ds}(s)right| \ &= lim_{delta sto 0}frac 1 {delta s}left| vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s) right| \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{(vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s)).(vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s))} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{| vec T(s + delta s)|^2 + | vec T(s) |^2 - 2vec T(s).vec T(s + delta s)}end{align}
But the curve is parameterised by arc length! So
$$ | vec T(s + delta s)|^2 = | vec T(s)|^2 = 1$$
and
$$ vec T(s).vec T(s + delta s) = cos Phi(s, s + delta s),$$
where $Phi(s, s + delta s)$ is the angle between $vec T(s)$ and $vec T(s + delta s)$.
Plugging this in, we get
begin{align}
kappa &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{2 - 2 cos Phi(s, s + delta s)} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} 2 sin left( frac { Phi(s, s + delta s) } {2}right) \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times frac{sin left( frac { Phi(s, s + delta s) } {2}right)}{frac{Phi(s, s + delta s)}{2}}
end{align}
Clearly, $lim_{delta s to 0} Phi(s, s + delta s) = 0$, so
begin{align}
kappa &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times lim_{Phi to 0} frac{sin left( frac { Phi } {2}right)}{frac{Phi}{2}} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times 1 \ &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s}end{align}
which agrees with the second definition.
How do you get from $sqrt{2-2cosPhi}$ to $2sinleft(frac{Phi}{2}right)$?
– Noble Mushtak
1 hour ago
1
@NobleMushtak I used $1 - cos x = 2 sin^2 (tfrac x 2)$.
– Kenny Wong
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Let's work with the first definition. We have
begin{align} kappa (s) &= left| frac{dvec T}{ds}(s)right| \ &= lim_{delta sto 0}frac 1 {delta s}left| vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s) right| \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{(vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s)).(vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s))} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{| vec T(s + delta s)|^2 + | vec T(s) |^2 - 2vec T(s).vec T(s + delta s)}end{align}
But the curve is parameterised by arc length! So
$$ | vec T(s + delta s)|^2 = | vec T(s)|^2 = 1$$
and
$$ vec T(s).vec T(s + delta s) = cos Phi(s, s + delta s),$$
where $Phi(s, s + delta s)$ is the angle between $vec T(s)$ and $vec T(s + delta s)$.
Plugging this in, we get
begin{align}
kappa &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{2 - 2 cos Phi(s, s + delta s)} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} 2 sin left( frac { Phi(s, s + delta s) } {2}right) \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times frac{sin left( frac { Phi(s, s + delta s) } {2}right)}{frac{Phi(s, s + delta s)}{2}}
end{align}
Clearly, $lim_{delta s to 0} Phi(s, s + delta s) = 0$, so
begin{align}
kappa &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times lim_{Phi to 0} frac{sin left( frac { Phi } {2}right)}{frac{Phi}{2}} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times 1 \ &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s}end{align}
which agrees with the second definition.
Let's work with the first definition. We have
begin{align} kappa (s) &= left| frac{dvec T}{ds}(s)right| \ &= lim_{delta sto 0}frac 1 {delta s}left| vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s) right| \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{(vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s)).(vec T(s + delta s) - vec T(s))} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{| vec T(s + delta s)|^2 + | vec T(s) |^2 - 2vec T(s).vec T(s + delta s)}end{align}
But the curve is parameterised by arc length! So
$$ | vec T(s + delta s)|^2 = | vec T(s)|^2 = 1$$
and
$$ vec T(s).vec T(s + delta s) = cos Phi(s, s + delta s),$$
where $Phi(s, s + delta s)$ is the angle between $vec T(s)$ and $vec T(s + delta s)$.
Plugging this in, we get
begin{align}
kappa &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} sqrt{2 - 2 cos Phi(s, s + delta s)} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac 1 {delta s} 2 sin left( frac { Phi(s, s + delta s) } {2}right) \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times frac{sin left( frac { Phi(s, s + delta s) } {2}right)}{frac{Phi(s, s + delta s)}{2}}
end{align}
Clearly, $lim_{delta s to 0} Phi(s, s + delta s) = 0$, so
begin{align}
kappa &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times lim_{Phi to 0} frac{sin left( frac { Phi } {2}right)}{frac{Phi}{2}} \
&= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s} times 1 \ &= lim_{delta s to 0} frac {Phi(s, s + delta s)} {delta s}end{align}
which agrees with the second definition.
answered 1 hour ago
Kenny Wong
17k21135
17k21135
How do you get from $sqrt{2-2cosPhi}$ to $2sinleft(frac{Phi}{2}right)$?
– Noble Mushtak
1 hour ago
1
@NobleMushtak I used $1 - cos x = 2 sin^2 (tfrac x 2)$.
– Kenny Wong
1 hour ago
add a comment |
How do you get from $sqrt{2-2cosPhi}$ to $2sinleft(frac{Phi}{2}right)$?
– Noble Mushtak
1 hour ago
1
@NobleMushtak I used $1 - cos x = 2 sin^2 (tfrac x 2)$.
– Kenny Wong
1 hour ago
How do you get from $sqrt{2-2cosPhi}$ to $2sinleft(frac{Phi}{2}right)$?
– Noble Mushtak
1 hour ago
How do you get from $sqrt{2-2cosPhi}$ to $2sinleft(frac{Phi}{2}right)$?
– Noble Mushtak
1 hour ago
1
1
@NobleMushtak I used $1 - cos x = 2 sin^2 (tfrac x 2)$.
– Kenny Wong
1 hour ago
@NobleMushtak I used $1 - cos x = 2 sin^2 (tfrac x 2)$.
– Kenny Wong
1 hour ago
add a comment |
By your first statement, $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$ where $kappa$ is the curvature and $N$ is the unit normal vector. Now, let's consider $T(s)$ and $T(s+Delta s)$, so that we can compare the angles between tangent vectors. Now, $T(s)$, $T(s+Delta s)$, and $N(s)$ are all unit vectors, so we can draw the following picture representing all of these vectors:
Here, $Delta theta$ is the angle between the two tangent vectors and $Delta T=T(s+Delta s)-T(s)$. From the diagram, we can find that $Delta Tcdot T(s)=1-cos Delta theta$ and $Delta Tcdot N(s)=sin dtheta$. From the x-component, we get the following equation:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot T(s)=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{Delta Tcdot T(s)}{Delta theta}=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{1-cos(Delta theta)}{Delta theta}=0$$
This was pretty obvious since $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$ is orthogonal to $T(s)$, so nothing new there. However, from the y-component, we get:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot N(s)=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{Delta Tcdot N(s)}{Delta theta}=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{sin(Delta theta)}{Delta theta}=1$$
Now, let's use chain rule to figure out what $frac{dT}{dtheta}$ is:
$$frac{dT}{ds}=kappa(s)N(s)=frac{dT}{dtheta}frac{dtheta}{ds} rightarrow frac{dT}{dtheta}=frac{kappa(s)N(s)}{frac{dtheta}{ds}}$$
Finally, let's plug this value for $frac{dT}{dtheta}$ into the equation with the dot product:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot N(s)=1rightarrow frac{kappa(s)N(s)cdot N(s)}{frac{dtheta}{ds}}=1rightarrow frac{dtheta}{ds}=kappa(s)N(s)cdot N(s)=kappa(s)$$
(Note that the last step uses $N(s)cdot N(s)=1$ since $N(s)$ is a unit vector.)
At this point, we have shown $frac{dtheta}{ds}=kappa(s)$, which is what we originally set out to prove. Q.E.D.
Of course, this isn't exactly a formal proof since it assumes $T(s+Delta s)$ is in the plane spanned by $T(s)$ and $N(s)$, which isn't necessarily true. However, I think this is a fair approximation since $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$, so $T(s+Delta s)approx T(s)+Delta sT'(s)=T(s)+[Delta skappa(s)]N(s)$. In any case, I feel like this geometric argument gives a better visual intuition for why $|T'(s)|=frac{dtheta}{ds}$.
Thank you for the answer. I accepted the other answer only because it was more straightforward, at least to me
– KKZiomek
20 mins ago
add a comment |
By your first statement, $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$ where $kappa$ is the curvature and $N$ is the unit normal vector. Now, let's consider $T(s)$ and $T(s+Delta s)$, so that we can compare the angles between tangent vectors. Now, $T(s)$, $T(s+Delta s)$, and $N(s)$ are all unit vectors, so we can draw the following picture representing all of these vectors:
Here, $Delta theta$ is the angle between the two tangent vectors and $Delta T=T(s+Delta s)-T(s)$. From the diagram, we can find that $Delta Tcdot T(s)=1-cos Delta theta$ and $Delta Tcdot N(s)=sin dtheta$. From the x-component, we get the following equation:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot T(s)=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{Delta Tcdot T(s)}{Delta theta}=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{1-cos(Delta theta)}{Delta theta}=0$$
This was pretty obvious since $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$ is orthogonal to $T(s)$, so nothing new there. However, from the y-component, we get:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot N(s)=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{Delta Tcdot N(s)}{Delta theta}=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{sin(Delta theta)}{Delta theta}=1$$
Now, let's use chain rule to figure out what $frac{dT}{dtheta}$ is:
$$frac{dT}{ds}=kappa(s)N(s)=frac{dT}{dtheta}frac{dtheta}{ds} rightarrow frac{dT}{dtheta}=frac{kappa(s)N(s)}{frac{dtheta}{ds}}$$
Finally, let's plug this value for $frac{dT}{dtheta}$ into the equation with the dot product:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot N(s)=1rightarrow frac{kappa(s)N(s)cdot N(s)}{frac{dtheta}{ds}}=1rightarrow frac{dtheta}{ds}=kappa(s)N(s)cdot N(s)=kappa(s)$$
(Note that the last step uses $N(s)cdot N(s)=1$ since $N(s)$ is a unit vector.)
At this point, we have shown $frac{dtheta}{ds}=kappa(s)$, which is what we originally set out to prove. Q.E.D.
Of course, this isn't exactly a formal proof since it assumes $T(s+Delta s)$ is in the plane spanned by $T(s)$ and $N(s)$, which isn't necessarily true. However, I think this is a fair approximation since $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$, so $T(s+Delta s)approx T(s)+Delta sT'(s)=T(s)+[Delta skappa(s)]N(s)$. In any case, I feel like this geometric argument gives a better visual intuition for why $|T'(s)|=frac{dtheta}{ds}$.
Thank you for the answer. I accepted the other answer only because it was more straightforward, at least to me
– KKZiomek
20 mins ago
add a comment |
By your first statement, $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$ where $kappa$ is the curvature and $N$ is the unit normal vector. Now, let's consider $T(s)$ and $T(s+Delta s)$, so that we can compare the angles between tangent vectors. Now, $T(s)$, $T(s+Delta s)$, and $N(s)$ are all unit vectors, so we can draw the following picture representing all of these vectors:
Here, $Delta theta$ is the angle between the two tangent vectors and $Delta T=T(s+Delta s)-T(s)$. From the diagram, we can find that $Delta Tcdot T(s)=1-cos Delta theta$ and $Delta Tcdot N(s)=sin dtheta$. From the x-component, we get the following equation:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot T(s)=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{Delta Tcdot T(s)}{Delta theta}=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{1-cos(Delta theta)}{Delta theta}=0$$
This was pretty obvious since $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$ is orthogonal to $T(s)$, so nothing new there. However, from the y-component, we get:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot N(s)=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{Delta Tcdot N(s)}{Delta theta}=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{sin(Delta theta)}{Delta theta}=1$$
Now, let's use chain rule to figure out what $frac{dT}{dtheta}$ is:
$$frac{dT}{ds}=kappa(s)N(s)=frac{dT}{dtheta}frac{dtheta}{ds} rightarrow frac{dT}{dtheta}=frac{kappa(s)N(s)}{frac{dtheta}{ds}}$$
Finally, let's plug this value for $frac{dT}{dtheta}$ into the equation with the dot product:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot N(s)=1rightarrow frac{kappa(s)N(s)cdot N(s)}{frac{dtheta}{ds}}=1rightarrow frac{dtheta}{ds}=kappa(s)N(s)cdot N(s)=kappa(s)$$
(Note that the last step uses $N(s)cdot N(s)=1$ since $N(s)$ is a unit vector.)
At this point, we have shown $frac{dtheta}{ds}=kappa(s)$, which is what we originally set out to prove. Q.E.D.
Of course, this isn't exactly a formal proof since it assumes $T(s+Delta s)$ is in the plane spanned by $T(s)$ and $N(s)$, which isn't necessarily true. However, I think this is a fair approximation since $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$, so $T(s+Delta s)approx T(s)+Delta sT'(s)=T(s)+[Delta skappa(s)]N(s)$. In any case, I feel like this geometric argument gives a better visual intuition for why $|T'(s)|=frac{dtheta}{ds}$.
By your first statement, $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$ where $kappa$ is the curvature and $N$ is the unit normal vector. Now, let's consider $T(s)$ and $T(s+Delta s)$, so that we can compare the angles between tangent vectors. Now, $T(s)$, $T(s+Delta s)$, and $N(s)$ are all unit vectors, so we can draw the following picture representing all of these vectors:
Here, $Delta theta$ is the angle between the two tangent vectors and $Delta T=T(s+Delta s)-T(s)$. From the diagram, we can find that $Delta Tcdot T(s)=1-cos Delta theta$ and $Delta Tcdot N(s)=sin dtheta$. From the x-component, we get the following equation:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot T(s)=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{Delta Tcdot T(s)}{Delta theta}=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{1-cos(Delta theta)}{Delta theta}=0$$
This was pretty obvious since $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$ is orthogonal to $T(s)$, so nothing new there. However, from the y-component, we get:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot N(s)=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{Delta Tcdot N(s)}{Delta theta}=lim_{Delta thetarightarrow 0}frac{sin(Delta theta)}{Delta theta}=1$$
Now, let's use chain rule to figure out what $frac{dT}{dtheta}$ is:
$$frac{dT}{ds}=kappa(s)N(s)=frac{dT}{dtheta}frac{dtheta}{ds} rightarrow frac{dT}{dtheta}=frac{kappa(s)N(s)}{frac{dtheta}{ds}}$$
Finally, let's plug this value for $frac{dT}{dtheta}$ into the equation with the dot product:
$$frac{dT}{dtheta}cdot N(s)=1rightarrow frac{kappa(s)N(s)cdot N(s)}{frac{dtheta}{ds}}=1rightarrow frac{dtheta}{ds}=kappa(s)N(s)cdot N(s)=kappa(s)$$
(Note that the last step uses $N(s)cdot N(s)=1$ since $N(s)$ is a unit vector.)
At this point, we have shown $frac{dtheta}{ds}=kappa(s)$, which is what we originally set out to prove. Q.E.D.
Of course, this isn't exactly a formal proof since it assumes $T(s+Delta s)$ is in the plane spanned by $T(s)$ and $N(s)$, which isn't necessarily true. However, I think this is a fair approximation since $T'(s)=kappa(s)N(s)$, so $T(s+Delta s)approx T(s)+Delta sT'(s)=T(s)+[Delta skappa(s)]N(s)$. In any case, I feel like this geometric argument gives a better visual intuition for why $|T'(s)|=frac{dtheta}{ds}$.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
Noble Mushtak
13.4k1633
13.4k1633
Thank you for the answer. I accepted the other answer only because it was more straightforward, at least to me
– KKZiomek
20 mins ago
add a comment |
Thank you for the answer. I accepted the other answer only because it was more straightforward, at least to me
– KKZiomek
20 mins ago
Thank you for the answer. I accepted the other answer only because it was more straightforward, at least to me
– KKZiomek
20 mins ago
Thank you for the answer. I accepted the other answer only because it was more straightforward, at least to me
– KKZiomek
20 mins ago
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3053446%2fcurvature-of-curve-equivalence-between-tangent-vector-and-angle-definitions%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown