Two sets such that $sup(A) = inf(B)$, there are elements within a distance of $epsilon$
Given two bounded, nonempty sets $A$ and $B$, such that $sup(A) = inf(B)$.
$(a)$ Show that $A cap B$ contains at most $1$ element.
Suppose that two distinct $a, b in A cap B $, we then have:
$$ a leq sup(A) = inf(B)$$
since $a in A$, and also since $b in B$ we can say that that:
$$ a leq sup(A) = inf(B) leq b rightarrow a leq b$$
We now make the same statement, but reverse the roles of $a$ and $b$, since $b in A$, and also since $a in B$
$$ b leq sup(A) = inf(B) leq a rightarrow b leq a$$
We conclude that $a=b$. $square$
I think this proof is fine so far.
(b) Show that:
$$ forall epsilon >0: space{ } exists a in A, b in B: space |a-b|< epsilon $$
I think the point is to use the first exercise,
1 element so suppose we have $c in A cap B$ then also $c in A,B$ , we then have that $|c-c|=0<epsilon$
No elements For the second case we would need to prove that whenever $A cap B = emptyset$, we can still find such an $a$ and $b$. Maybe we could somehow use the fact about the supremum and infimum, but I am not sure how to use this. We know that $a leq sup(A)=inf(B) leq b$, this just tells us how they are ordered.
real-analysis
add a comment |
Given two bounded, nonempty sets $A$ and $B$, such that $sup(A) = inf(B)$.
$(a)$ Show that $A cap B$ contains at most $1$ element.
Suppose that two distinct $a, b in A cap B $, we then have:
$$ a leq sup(A) = inf(B)$$
since $a in A$, and also since $b in B$ we can say that that:
$$ a leq sup(A) = inf(B) leq b rightarrow a leq b$$
We now make the same statement, but reverse the roles of $a$ and $b$, since $b in A$, and also since $a in B$
$$ b leq sup(A) = inf(B) leq a rightarrow b leq a$$
We conclude that $a=b$. $square$
I think this proof is fine so far.
(b) Show that:
$$ forall epsilon >0: space{ } exists a in A, b in B: space |a-b|< epsilon $$
I think the point is to use the first exercise,
1 element so suppose we have $c in A cap B$ then also $c in A,B$ , we then have that $|c-c|=0<epsilon$
No elements For the second case we would need to prove that whenever $A cap B = emptyset$, we can still find such an $a$ and $b$. Maybe we could somehow use the fact about the supremum and infimum, but I am not sure how to use this. We know that $a leq sup(A)=inf(B) leq b$, this just tells us how they are ordered.
real-analysis
add a comment |
Given two bounded, nonempty sets $A$ and $B$, such that $sup(A) = inf(B)$.
$(a)$ Show that $A cap B$ contains at most $1$ element.
Suppose that two distinct $a, b in A cap B $, we then have:
$$ a leq sup(A) = inf(B)$$
since $a in A$, and also since $b in B$ we can say that that:
$$ a leq sup(A) = inf(B) leq b rightarrow a leq b$$
We now make the same statement, but reverse the roles of $a$ and $b$, since $b in A$, and also since $a in B$
$$ b leq sup(A) = inf(B) leq a rightarrow b leq a$$
We conclude that $a=b$. $square$
I think this proof is fine so far.
(b) Show that:
$$ forall epsilon >0: space{ } exists a in A, b in B: space |a-b|< epsilon $$
I think the point is to use the first exercise,
1 element so suppose we have $c in A cap B$ then also $c in A,B$ , we then have that $|c-c|=0<epsilon$
No elements For the second case we would need to prove that whenever $A cap B = emptyset$, we can still find such an $a$ and $b$. Maybe we could somehow use the fact about the supremum and infimum, but I am not sure how to use this. We know that $a leq sup(A)=inf(B) leq b$, this just tells us how they are ordered.
real-analysis
Given two bounded, nonempty sets $A$ and $B$, such that $sup(A) = inf(B)$.
$(a)$ Show that $A cap B$ contains at most $1$ element.
Suppose that two distinct $a, b in A cap B $, we then have:
$$ a leq sup(A) = inf(B)$$
since $a in A$, and also since $b in B$ we can say that that:
$$ a leq sup(A) = inf(B) leq b rightarrow a leq b$$
We now make the same statement, but reverse the roles of $a$ and $b$, since $b in A$, and also since $a in B$
$$ b leq sup(A) = inf(B) leq a rightarrow b leq a$$
We conclude that $a=b$. $square$
I think this proof is fine so far.
(b) Show that:
$$ forall epsilon >0: space{ } exists a in A, b in B: space |a-b|< epsilon $$
I think the point is to use the first exercise,
1 element so suppose we have $c in A cap B$ then also $c in A,B$ , we then have that $|c-c|=0<epsilon$
No elements For the second case we would need to prove that whenever $A cap B = emptyset$, we can still find such an $a$ and $b$. Maybe we could somehow use the fact about the supremum and infimum, but I am not sure how to use this. We know that $a leq sup(A)=inf(B) leq b$, this just tells us how they are ordered.
real-analysis
real-analysis
asked Nov 29 '18 at 20:26
Wesley StrikWesley Strik
1,623423
1,623423
add a comment |
add a comment |
4 Answers
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I think it's unnecessarily complicated to use the first question. It could be useful to use the following property of $c=sup(A)$. For every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $ain A$ such that
$$c-varepsilon<a$$
(otherwise $c$ wouldn't be the lowest upper bound!). Similarly if $d=inf(B)$ then for every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $bin B$ such that
$$b<d+varepsilon$$
Can you finish it from there?
of course! very nice suggestion.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:22
I formulated my answer below, for anyone interested.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:37
add a comment |
You can use the first statement if you wish. So you have two cases.
Case 1 A$cap$B = {a} You'll want to show that a = inf A = sup B. Then you can prove your claim using definitions.
Case 2 A$cap$ B = $emptyset$ For elements to be within distance $epsilon$ of each other, you can show they are distance $frac{epsilon}{2}$ away from s = inf A = sup B. This can also be done with definitions of sup and inf.
What @Olivier Moschetta has written is also correct. You'll notice you'll use the same arguments in both cases.
Thanks for answering my question and showing me it can be done both ways.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:23
add a comment |
I don't think the first statement is necessary for the second.
But the definition (one way or another) of $sup A$ is that if $w < sup A$ then $w$ is not upper bound. So if $w < sup A$ there exists an $ain A$ so that $w < a le sup A$.
Likewise if $v > inf B$ then $v$ is not a lower bound of $B$ and so there is a $b in B$ so so that $inf B le b < v$.
If we let $w = sup A - frac 12epsilon$ and $v = inf B + frac 12 epsilon $ we get that there are elements $a,b$ so that:
$w = sup A - frac 12epsilon < a le sup A = sup B le b < sup B + frac 12 epsilon$.
And so $|b-a| = b- a < (inf B + frac 12 epsilon) - (sup - frac 12epsilon = epsilon$.
Now it could be that $a = b = sup A=inf B$. Or it might not. If $Acap B = {z}$ where $z = inf B=sup A$ that's a perfectly good example that works. But it need not be the only. If $Acap B =emptyset$ then we know that there is another example. But none of this is necessary
add a comment |
Let $c=sup(A)$ and $d=inf(B)$
For every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $ain A$ such that
$$c-frac{varepsilon}{2}<a rightarrow c-a <frac{varepsilon}{2} $$
Similarly, for every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $bin B$ such that
$$b<d+ frac{varepsilon}{2} rightarrow b-d < frac{varepsilon}{2}$$
Also notice that $c=d$, so we have that
$$b-c < frac{varepsilon}{2}$$
Great, now notice that by the triangle inequality:
$$ |a-b|=|a-c + c-b| leq |a-c| + |c-b|=|c-a|+|b-c|<frac{varepsilon}{2} + frac{varepsilon}{2} = varepsilon $$
Booya!
add a comment |
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4 Answers
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4 Answers
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I think it's unnecessarily complicated to use the first question. It could be useful to use the following property of $c=sup(A)$. For every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $ain A$ such that
$$c-varepsilon<a$$
(otherwise $c$ wouldn't be the lowest upper bound!). Similarly if $d=inf(B)$ then for every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $bin B$ such that
$$b<d+varepsilon$$
Can you finish it from there?
of course! very nice suggestion.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:22
I formulated my answer below, for anyone interested.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:37
add a comment |
I think it's unnecessarily complicated to use the first question. It could be useful to use the following property of $c=sup(A)$. For every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $ain A$ such that
$$c-varepsilon<a$$
(otherwise $c$ wouldn't be the lowest upper bound!). Similarly if $d=inf(B)$ then for every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $bin B$ such that
$$b<d+varepsilon$$
Can you finish it from there?
of course! very nice suggestion.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:22
I formulated my answer below, for anyone interested.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:37
add a comment |
I think it's unnecessarily complicated to use the first question. It could be useful to use the following property of $c=sup(A)$. For every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $ain A$ such that
$$c-varepsilon<a$$
(otherwise $c$ wouldn't be the lowest upper bound!). Similarly if $d=inf(B)$ then for every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $bin B$ such that
$$b<d+varepsilon$$
Can you finish it from there?
I think it's unnecessarily complicated to use the first question. It could be useful to use the following property of $c=sup(A)$. For every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $ain A$ such that
$$c-varepsilon<a$$
(otherwise $c$ wouldn't be the lowest upper bound!). Similarly if $d=inf(B)$ then for every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $bin B$ such that
$$b<d+varepsilon$$
Can you finish it from there?
answered Nov 29 '18 at 20:34
Olivier MoschettaOlivier Moschetta
2,8111411
2,8111411
of course! very nice suggestion.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:22
I formulated my answer below, for anyone interested.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:37
add a comment |
of course! very nice suggestion.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:22
I formulated my answer below, for anyone interested.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:37
of course! very nice suggestion.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:22
of course! very nice suggestion.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:22
I formulated my answer below, for anyone interested.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:37
I formulated my answer below, for anyone interested.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:37
add a comment |
You can use the first statement if you wish. So you have two cases.
Case 1 A$cap$B = {a} You'll want to show that a = inf A = sup B. Then you can prove your claim using definitions.
Case 2 A$cap$ B = $emptyset$ For elements to be within distance $epsilon$ of each other, you can show they are distance $frac{epsilon}{2}$ away from s = inf A = sup B. This can also be done with definitions of sup and inf.
What @Olivier Moschetta has written is also correct. You'll notice you'll use the same arguments in both cases.
Thanks for answering my question and showing me it can be done both ways.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:23
add a comment |
You can use the first statement if you wish. So you have two cases.
Case 1 A$cap$B = {a} You'll want to show that a = inf A = sup B. Then you can prove your claim using definitions.
Case 2 A$cap$ B = $emptyset$ For elements to be within distance $epsilon$ of each other, you can show they are distance $frac{epsilon}{2}$ away from s = inf A = sup B. This can also be done with definitions of sup and inf.
What @Olivier Moschetta has written is also correct. You'll notice you'll use the same arguments in both cases.
Thanks for answering my question and showing me it can be done both ways.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:23
add a comment |
You can use the first statement if you wish. So you have two cases.
Case 1 A$cap$B = {a} You'll want to show that a = inf A = sup B. Then you can prove your claim using definitions.
Case 2 A$cap$ B = $emptyset$ For elements to be within distance $epsilon$ of each other, you can show they are distance $frac{epsilon}{2}$ away from s = inf A = sup B. This can also be done with definitions of sup and inf.
What @Olivier Moschetta has written is also correct. You'll notice you'll use the same arguments in both cases.
You can use the first statement if you wish. So you have two cases.
Case 1 A$cap$B = {a} You'll want to show that a = inf A = sup B. Then you can prove your claim using definitions.
Case 2 A$cap$ B = $emptyset$ For elements to be within distance $epsilon$ of each other, you can show they are distance $frac{epsilon}{2}$ away from s = inf A = sup B. This can also be done with definitions of sup and inf.
What @Olivier Moschetta has written is also correct. You'll notice you'll use the same arguments in both cases.
answered Nov 29 '18 at 20:59
Joel PereiraJoel Pereira
68819
68819
Thanks for answering my question and showing me it can be done both ways.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:23
add a comment |
Thanks for answering my question and showing me it can be done both ways.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:23
Thanks for answering my question and showing me it can be done both ways.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:23
Thanks for answering my question and showing me it can be done both ways.
– Wesley Strik
Nov 29 '18 at 21:23
add a comment |
I don't think the first statement is necessary for the second.
But the definition (one way or another) of $sup A$ is that if $w < sup A$ then $w$ is not upper bound. So if $w < sup A$ there exists an $ain A$ so that $w < a le sup A$.
Likewise if $v > inf B$ then $v$ is not a lower bound of $B$ and so there is a $b in B$ so so that $inf B le b < v$.
If we let $w = sup A - frac 12epsilon$ and $v = inf B + frac 12 epsilon $ we get that there are elements $a,b$ so that:
$w = sup A - frac 12epsilon < a le sup A = sup B le b < sup B + frac 12 epsilon$.
And so $|b-a| = b- a < (inf B + frac 12 epsilon) - (sup - frac 12epsilon = epsilon$.
Now it could be that $a = b = sup A=inf B$. Or it might not. If $Acap B = {z}$ where $z = inf B=sup A$ that's a perfectly good example that works. But it need not be the only. If $Acap B =emptyset$ then we know that there is another example. But none of this is necessary
add a comment |
I don't think the first statement is necessary for the second.
But the definition (one way or another) of $sup A$ is that if $w < sup A$ then $w$ is not upper bound. So if $w < sup A$ there exists an $ain A$ so that $w < a le sup A$.
Likewise if $v > inf B$ then $v$ is not a lower bound of $B$ and so there is a $b in B$ so so that $inf B le b < v$.
If we let $w = sup A - frac 12epsilon$ and $v = inf B + frac 12 epsilon $ we get that there are elements $a,b$ so that:
$w = sup A - frac 12epsilon < a le sup A = sup B le b < sup B + frac 12 epsilon$.
And so $|b-a| = b- a < (inf B + frac 12 epsilon) - (sup - frac 12epsilon = epsilon$.
Now it could be that $a = b = sup A=inf B$. Or it might not. If $Acap B = {z}$ where $z = inf B=sup A$ that's a perfectly good example that works. But it need not be the only. If $Acap B =emptyset$ then we know that there is another example. But none of this is necessary
add a comment |
I don't think the first statement is necessary for the second.
But the definition (one way or another) of $sup A$ is that if $w < sup A$ then $w$ is not upper bound. So if $w < sup A$ there exists an $ain A$ so that $w < a le sup A$.
Likewise if $v > inf B$ then $v$ is not a lower bound of $B$ and so there is a $b in B$ so so that $inf B le b < v$.
If we let $w = sup A - frac 12epsilon$ and $v = inf B + frac 12 epsilon $ we get that there are elements $a,b$ so that:
$w = sup A - frac 12epsilon < a le sup A = sup B le b < sup B + frac 12 epsilon$.
And so $|b-a| = b- a < (inf B + frac 12 epsilon) - (sup - frac 12epsilon = epsilon$.
Now it could be that $a = b = sup A=inf B$. Or it might not. If $Acap B = {z}$ where $z = inf B=sup A$ that's a perfectly good example that works. But it need not be the only. If $Acap B =emptyset$ then we know that there is another example. But none of this is necessary
I don't think the first statement is necessary for the second.
But the definition (one way or another) of $sup A$ is that if $w < sup A$ then $w$ is not upper bound. So if $w < sup A$ there exists an $ain A$ so that $w < a le sup A$.
Likewise if $v > inf B$ then $v$ is not a lower bound of $B$ and so there is a $b in B$ so so that $inf B le b < v$.
If we let $w = sup A - frac 12epsilon$ and $v = inf B + frac 12 epsilon $ we get that there are elements $a,b$ so that:
$w = sup A - frac 12epsilon < a le sup A = sup B le b < sup B + frac 12 epsilon$.
And so $|b-a| = b- a < (inf B + frac 12 epsilon) - (sup - frac 12epsilon = epsilon$.
Now it could be that $a = b = sup A=inf B$. Or it might not. If $Acap B = {z}$ where $z = inf B=sup A$ that's a perfectly good example that works. But it need not be the only. If $Acap B =emptyset$ then we know that there is another example. But none of this is necessary
answered Nov 29 '18 at 21:33
fleabloodfleablood
68.7k22685
68.7k22685
add a comment |
add a comment |
Let $c=sup(A)$ and $d=inf(B)$
For every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $ain A$ such that
$$c-frac{varepsilon}{2}<a rightarrow c-a <frac{varepsilon}{2} $$
Similarly, for every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $bin B$ such that
$$b<d+ frac{varepsilon}{2} rightarrow b-d < frac{varepsilon}{2}$$
Also notice that $c=d$, so we have that
$$b-c < frac{varepsilon}{2}$$
Great, now notice that by the triangle inequality:
$$ |a-b|=|a-c + c-b| leq |a-c| + |c-b|=|c-a|+|b-c|<frac{varepsilon}{2} + frac{varepsilon}{2} = varepsilon $$
Booya!
add a comment |
Let $c=sup(A)$ and $d=inf(B)$
For every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $ain A$ such that
$$c-frac{varepsilon}{2}<a rightarrow c-a <frac{varepsilon}{2} $$
Similarly, for every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $bin B$ such that
$$b<d+ frac{varepsilon}{2} rightarrow b-d < frac{varepsilon}{2}$$
Also notice that $c=d$, so we have that
$$b-c < frac{varepsilon}{2}$$
Great, now notice that by the triangle inequality:
$$ |a-b|=|a-c + c-b| leq |a-c| + |c-b|=|c-a|+|b-c|<frac{varepsilon}{2} + frac{varepsilon}{2} = varepsilon $$
Booya!
add a comment |
Let $c=sup(A)$ and $d=inf(B)$
For every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $ain A$ such that
$$c-frac{varepsilon}{2}<a rightarrow c-a <frac{varepsilon}{2} $$
Similarly, for every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $bin B$ such that
$$b<d+ frac{varepsilon}{2} rightarrow b-d < frac{varepsilon}{2}$$
Also notice that $c=d$, so we have that
$$b-c < frac{varepsilon}{2}$$
Great, now notice that by the triangle inequality:
$$ |a-b|=|a-c + c-b| leq |a-c| + |c-b|=|c-a|+|b-c|<frac{varepsilon}{2} + frac{varepsilon}{2} = varepsilon $$
Booya!
Let $c=sup(A)$ and $d=inf(B)$
For every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $ain A$ such that
$$c-frac{varepsilon}{2}<a rightarrow c-a <frac{varepsilon}{2} $$
Similarly, for every $varepsilon>0$ there exists $bin B$ such that
$$b<d+ frac{varepsilon}{2} rightarrow b-d < frac{varepsilon}{2}$$
Also notice that $c=d$, so we have that
$$b-c < frac{varepsilon}{2}$$
Great, now notice that by the triangle inequality:
$$ |a-b|=|a-c + c-b| leq |a-c| + |c-b|=|c-a|+|b-c|<frac{varepsilon}{2} + frac{varepsilon}{2} = varepsilon $$
Booya!
answered Nov 29 '18 at 21:36
Wesley StrikWesley Strik
1,623423
1,623423
add a comment |
add a comment |
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