How do I deal with a DM that throws encounters at us that are way above the party?
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I'm not sure if the question was worded in a coherent way, but I have recently played in a Pathfinder game and a 5e game and both times the DM (same one both times) gave us overpowered encounters.
In the Pathfinder game we were four level 5 characters and the main boss was a CR 9 with five other creatures no lower than CR 4. It was a TPK.
In the 5e game we were a party of three level 1 characters and we were up against nine CR 2 creatures. It was also a TPK.
There was no way out of either combat. The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in and the CR 9 was invisible and wanted to eat us and the others were hidden. The 5e encounter we were going through a town and the enemies came out of hiding and surrounded us. No scouting or anything would have shown it unless we were to investigate every single building, crate and barrel.
The DM has been a DM for a few years and he didn't seem fazed about it and we did talk to him but he was focused on the individual creatures and not the combination of creatures.
How can I tell the DM he needs to back it down and use appropriate CR creatures?
dnd-5e pathfinder encounter-design problem-gm
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up vote
26
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I'm not sure if the question was worded in a coherent way, but I have recently played in a Pathfinder game and a 5e game and both times the DM (same one both times) gave us overpowered encounters.
In the Pathfinder game we were four level 5 characters and the main boss was a CR 9 with five other creatures no lower than CR 4. It was a TPK.
In the 5e game we were a party of three level 1 characters and we were up against nine CR 2 creatures. It was also a TPK.
There was no way out of either combat. The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in and the CR 9 was invisible and wanted to eat us and the others were hidden. The 5e encounter we were going through a town and the enemies came out of hiding and surrounded us. No scouting or anything would have shown it unless we were to investigate every single building, crate and barrel.
The DM has been a DM for a few years and he didn't seem fazed about it and we did talk to him but he was focused on the individual creatures and not the combination of creatures.
How can I tell the DM he needs to back it down and use appropriate CR creatures?
dnd-5e pathfinder encounter-design problem-gm
10
Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
– Sdjz
yesterday
4
I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
– Rubiksmoose
yesterday
Please do not answer in comments.
– mxyzplk♦
9 hours ago
1
What happened in these encounters? Did you win? Was it a TPK?
– Tim B
8 hours ago
@TimB: The question says both encounters were TPKs.
– user2357112
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
26
down vote
favorite
up vote
26
down vote
favorite
I'm not sure if the question was worded in a coherent way, but I have recently played in a Pathfinder game and a 5e game and both times the DM (same one both times) gave us overpowered encounters.
In the Pathfinder game we were four level 5 characters and the main boss was a CR 9 with five other creatures no lower than CR 4. It was a TPK.
In the 5e game we were a party of three level 1 characters and we were up against nine CR 2 creatures. It was also a TPK.
There was no way out of either combat. The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in and the CR 9 was invisible and wanted to eat us and the others were hidden. The 5e encounter we were going through a town and the enemies came out of hiding and surrounded us. No scouting or anything would have shown it unless we were to investigate every single building, crate and barrel.
The DM has been a DM for a few years and he didn't seem fazed about it and we did talk to him but he was focused on the individual creatures and not the combination of creatures.
How can I tell the DM he needs to back it down and use appropriate CR creatures?
dnd-5e pathfinder encounter-design problem-gm
I'm not sure if the question was worded in a coherent way, but I have recently played in a Pathfinder game and a 5e game and both times the DM (same one both times) gave us overpowered encounters.
In the Pathfinder game we were four level 5 characters and the main boss was a CR 9 with five other creatures no lower than CR 4. It was a TPK.
In the 5e game we were a party of three level 1 characters and we were up against nine CR 2 creatures. It was also a TPK.
There was no way out of either combat. The Pathfinder encounter was in a dungeon we were locked in and the CR 9 was invisible and wanted to eat us and the others were hidden. The 5e encounter we were going through a town and the enemies came out of hiding and surrounded us. No scouting or anything would have shown it unless we were to investigate every single building, crate and barrel.
The DM has been a DM for a few years and he didn't seem fazed about it and we did talk to him but he was focused on the individual creatures and not the combination of creatures.
How can I tell the DM he needs to back it down and use appropriate CR creatures?
dnd-5e pathfinder encounter-design problem-gm
dnd-5e pathfinder encounter-design problem-gm
edited 8 hours ago
asked yesterday
Eternallord66
243211
243211
10
Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
– Sdjz
yesterday
4
I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
– Rubiksmoose
yesterday
Please do not answer in comments.
– mxyzplk♦
9 hours ago
1
What happened in these encounters? Did you win? Was it a TPK?
– Tim B
8 hours ago
@TimB: The question says both encounters were TPKs.
– user2357112
5 hours ago
add a comment |
10
Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
– Sdjz
yesterday
4
I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
– Rubiksmoose
yesterday
Please do not answer in comments.
– mxyzplk♦
9 hours ago
1
What happened in these encounters? Did you win? Was it a TPK?
– Tim B
8 hours ago
@TimB: The question says both encounters were TPKs.
– user2357112
5 hours ago
10
10
Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
– Sdjz
yesterday
Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
– Sdjz
yesterday
4
4
I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
– Rubiksmoose
yesterday
I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
– Rubiksmoose
yesterday
Please do not answer in comments.
– mxyzplk♦
9 hours ago
Please do not answer in comments.
– mxyzplk♦
9 hours ago
1
1
What happened in these encounters? Did you win? Was it a TPK?
– Tim B
8 hours ago
What happened in these encounters? Did you win? Was it a TPK?
– Tim B
8 hours ago
@TimB: The question says both encounters were TPKs.
– user2357112
5 hours ago
@TimB: The question says both encounters were TPKs.
– user2357112
5 hours ago
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
up vote
60
down vote
Talk to the DM
Give non-accusatory feedback
Express your point of view using neutral language and I statements. E.g. "When the encounter with 9 ogres ended in the death of all the characters, I felt helpless and it was not fun for me."
Ask for feedback.
Ask them if there were alternative endings they had in mind. It can take a while to get in sync with the other people's storytelling methods and ways of thinking about plots. Perhaps there was some secret or trick that they had expected the party to discover.
Discuss game expectations and desires with Players and GM
It sounds like your expectations for the game were not met. This may be the case for everyone involved. There are a number of ways to avoid or mitigate the subsequent campaigns. Suggest doing a session 0 to facilitate this discussion.
24
This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
– Cyrad
yesterday
Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
– Sumyrda
22 hours ago
2
To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
– Mortaza
17 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
19
down vote
You can say something like: "I didn't have fun in this game because you gave us an encounter that was far too difficult and we all died." That's a fair criticism.
But, honestly, D&D is a game where you vote with your feet. The DM can narrate anything happening that they want; the players can leave the game and find a different DM if they're not having fun.
My own policy is that, if someone TPKs my group in this way, I thank them politely for their time, and then I leave the game. You might try doing the same.
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
Start Running away!
Just run from every encounter (choose something fast). Avoid everything remotely risky. Eventually the GM will get the message.
Running away can actually be a really fun way to play a campaign. The mechanics can be pretty interesting, and it can be fun to just play a group that is so scared of everything that they run away.
8
But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
– Ling
yesterday
26
I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
– Dan B
yesterday
6
Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
– Wibbs
yesterday
1
I like this answer, but I would also appreciate if you gave more explanation, as others have mentioned.
– goodguy5
yesterday
3
Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
10
down vote
Step 1: Discuss with the DM the Basic Rules on How to Build an Encounter.
This part of the answer is confined to D&D 5e.
Step 1a: share this answer with your DM, as your judgment dictates.
The Basic Rules have Encounter Building guidance on pages 165-167. Sit down with the DM and work through an encounter building exercise for level 1 characters. Build together an encounter for each difficulty: Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.
Step 2: Ask DM to run one of each (difficulty) encounter at the next session.
By running encounters at each difficulty level, the DM can get a rough idea about what this edition's encounter difficulty looks like.
Then ask the DM to build and run a hard encounter that is built for a party of characters 2 levels higher than your characters.
For example: if you are all now level 2, have him build and run one for a party of level 4 characters. That's about 2000 XP adjusted. Two yetis (1400 x 1.5 = 2100) is close enough. A Wight and four Zombies would work also. (About 1800 XP adjusted)
The DM may still prefer, and your group may prefer, encounters at the
deadly and deadly-plus level. With the above approach, "how to
turn the dials up and down" will be better appreciated, as will how out-of-whack the initial encounter was for your group of three level 1 characters.
- The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
(adjusted) 8,100 encounter XP. (450 X 9 X 2.5; Basic Rules, p. 165).
That is between Hard and Deadly for a party of three 9th-level
characters. (3 x 2800 = 8,400 deadly for three 9th-level
characters).
- The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
See how it goes. There may still be a taste, at your table, for harder rather than easier encounters.
For time saving: using an online tool like Kobold Fight Club may make creating and adjusting encounter crafting easier. (Thanks @NautArch)
Step 3: ask the DM, "How's it going to be going forward?"
This is the "session 0" for your group. Lethality level is a matter of taste in RPGs. Your whole group needs to discuss this matter with the DM, once the lethality levels of varying degrees have been experienced by the group. This is a chance to grow together as a gaming group.
Vote to stay, or to go, based on the outcome of this process and the next few sessions.
No, this isn't the easy way.
But it might work. The DM might just need to get a "feel" for encounter building model for this edition. I did when I was starting out with 5e.
For Pathfinder
You can do something similar with the materials in the PFSRD, under the heading "Designing Encounters." The CR analysis and XP budgeting are similar, with the following caveat:
... Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty @Brick the Toasted
There have been similar criticisms of 5e's encounter modeling tools, but it's a place to start.
I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
– Brick the Toasted
yesterday
@BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
@BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
– TemporalWolf
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
You provide no information about the GM, so be in dubio pro reo and talk to him outside the game and start by assuming that you missed something.
As a GM, I never throw an impossible encounter to my characters unless we are playing Paranoia or Cthulhu. In the first case a TPK at least once an evening is expected and in the 2nd case running away is the default choice of any sane character anyways.
So it is quite possible that your GM had assumed that you would know the critters can be splashed with regular water and will panic. Or that you actually had that magic crossbow the bard always talks about. Or that the wizard would use all his spells in this encounter which clearly required full power, or, or, or.
Your first question could be if he expected you to win, lose or evade the encounter.
Since it sounds like you are not playing with this GM so often, check if maybe his regular group likes tough encounters. Or he is used to them using every tiny advantage in the rules so that he needs to turn up the monster levels to keep encounters a challenge.
Unless the GM is being deliberately unfair - which you should only conclude after examining other answers first - it appears that somewhere wrong assumptions were made. By you or by the GM. A discussion can clear that up, if nobody is pushed into defending themselves.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
That encounter isn't for fighting
My first run as DM, I threw a beholder at a level 2 party. They were like "Nope, not gonna fight that". Which worked out well, because the beholder didn't want to fight the party either, he had other problems. Ones with synergy to the goals of a level 2 good-aligned party.
Obviously that was a quest progression encounter. That's exactly how you should treat impossible fights like this. But hold on.
Force protection is the first priority. It's better to miss the story opportunity than have a TPK searching for quest lore on the tips of their swords.
But (usually at least), the encounter wasn't "for no reason". The DM needs to be granted a reasonable opportunity for the purpose of the encounter to unfold. So that's the puzzle.
Now there's a tendency these days for folks to assume the other fellow is a moron. Easy to fall into. Don't. So "the DM sucks" may be the answer to the puzzle, but it's not the way to bet.
Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
– KorvinStarmast
10 hours ago
double negative
– Wyrmwood
4 hours ago
@Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
– Harper
4 hours ago
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
60
down vote
Talk to the DM
Give non-accusatory feedback
Express your point of view using neutral language and I statements. E.g. "When the encounter with 9 ogres ended in the death of all the characters, I felt helpless and it was not fun for me."
Ask for feedback.
Ask them if there were alternative endings they had in mind. It can take a while to get in sync with the other people's storytelling methods and ways of thinking about plots. Perhaps there was some secret or trick that they had expected the party to discover.
Discuss game expectations and desires with Players and GM
It sounds like your expectations for the game were not met. This may be the case for everyone involved. There are a number of ways to avoid or mitigate the subsequent campaigns. Suggest doing a session 0 to facilitate this discussion.
24
This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
– Cyrad
yesterday
Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
– Sumyrda
22 hours ago
2
To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
– Mortaza
17 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
60
down vote
Talk to the DM
Give non-accusatory feedback
Express your point of view using neutral language and I statements. E.g. "When the encounter with 9 ogres ended in the death of all the characters, I felt helpless and it was not fun for me."
Ask for feedback.
Ask them if there were alternative endings they had in mind. It can take a while to get in sync with the other people's storytelling methods and ways of thinking about plots. Perhaps there was some secret or trick that they had expected the party to discover.
Discuss game expectations and desires with Players and GM
It sounds like your expectations for the game were not met. This may be the case for everyone involved. There are a number of ways to avoid or mitigate the subsequent campaigns. Suggest doing a session 0 to facilitate this discussion.
24
This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
– Cyrad
yesterday
Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
– Sumyrda
22 hours ago
2
To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
– Mortaza
17 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
60
down vote
up vote
60
down vote
Talk to the DM
Give non-accusatory feedback
Express your point of view using neutral language and I statements. E.g. "When the encounter with 9 ogres ended in the death of all the characters, I felt helpless and it was not fun for me."
Ask for feedback.
Ask them if there were alternative endings they had in mind. It can take a while to get in sync with the other people's storytelling methods and ways of thinking about plots. Perhaps there was some secret or trick that they had expected the party to discover.
Discuss game expectations and desires with Players and GM
It sounds like your expectations for the game were not met. This may be the case for everyone involved. There are a number of ways to avoid or mitigate the subsequent campaigns. Suggest doing a session 0 to facilitate this discussion.
Talk to the DM
Give non-accusatory feedback
Express your point of view using neutral language and I statements. E.g. "When the encounter with 9 ogres ended in the death of all the characters, I felt helpless and it was not fun for me."
Ask for feedback.
Ask them if there were alternative endings they had in mind. It can take a while to get in sync with the other people's storytelling methods and ways of thinking about plots. Perhaps there was some secret or trick that they had expected the party to discover.
Discuss game expectations and desires with Players and GM
It sounds like your expectations for the game were not met. This may be the case for everyone involved. There are a number of ways to avoid or mitigate the subsequent campaigns. Suggest doing a session 0 to facilitate this discussion.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Grosscol
6,9631656
6,9631656
24
This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
– Cyrad
yesterday
Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
– Sumyrda
22 hours ago
2
To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
– Mortaza
17 hours ago
add a comment |
24
This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
– Cyrad
yesterday
Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
– Sumyrda
22 hours ago
2
To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
– Mortaza
17 hours ago
24
24
This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
– Cyrad
yesterday
This is the right answer, but I would also add asking the GM why they're presenting hard encounters. Is it a deliberate attempt to make the game gritty and challenging? Is it unintentional? Are they overestimating how powerful the party is? In my experience, the most common reason DMs present overpowered encounters is because of a misunderstanding of how CRs are calculated. I had known many DMs who thought a group of CR 1 monsters results in a CR 1 encounter. Understanding why the DM is doing this is very important when discussing this issue with them.
– Cyrad
yesterday
Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
– Sumyrda
22 hours ago
Or the DM wanted to achieve a total party abduction (that's a decent way to start an adventure but I'd narrate it as it's not fun to play when the PCs can't do anything against it) and just forgot to offer "we'll let you live if you stop fighting and come with us" in the heat of the moment - or they said it but the players didn't catch it in the heat of the moment - that happens, especially to new DMs with groups they don't know well.
– Sumyrda
22 hours ago
2
2
To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
– Mortaza
17 hours ago
To add to this answer: Maybe suggest a tool like Kobold Fight Club. It gives an objective viewpoint of how hard your previous encounters were, and it can help your DM get a better view on what would be a fairer encounter.
– Mortaza
17 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
19
down vote
You can say something like: "I didn't have fun in this game because you gave us an encounter that was far too difficult and we all died." That's a fair criticism.
But, honestly, D&D is a game where you vote with your feet. The DM can narrate anything happening that they want; the players can leave the game and find a different DM if they're not having fun.
My own policy is that, if someone TPKs my group in this way, I thank them politely for their time, and then I leave the game. You might try doing the same.
add a comment |
up vote
19
down vote
You can say something like: "I didn't have fun in this game because you gave us an encounter that was far too difficult and we all died." That's a fair criticism.
But, honestly, D&D is a game where you vote with your feet. The DM can narrate anything happening that they want; the players can leave the game and find a different DM if they're not having fun.
My own policy is that, if someone TPKs my group in this way, I thank them politely for their time, and then I leave the game. You might try doing the same.
add a comment |
up vote
19
down vote
up vote
19
down vote
You can say something like: "I didn't have fun in this game because you gave us an encounter that was far too difficult and we all died." That's a fair criticism.
But, honestly, D&D is a game where you vote with your feet. The DM can narrate anything happening that they want; the players can leave the game and find a different DM if they're not having fun.
My own policy is that, if someone TPKs my group in this way, I thank them politely for their time, and then I leave the game. You might try doing the same.
You can say something like: "I didn't have fun in this game because you gave us an encounter that was far too difficult and we all died." That's a fair criticism.
But, honestly, D&D is a game where you vote with your feet. The DM can narrate anything happening that they want; the players can leave the game and find a different DM if they're not having fun.
My own policy is that, if someone TPKs my group in this way, I thank them politely for their time, and then I leave the game. You might try doing the same.
answered yesterday
Dan B
34.2k762134
34.2k762134
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
Start Running away!
Just run from every encounter (choose something fast). Avoid everything remotely risky. Eventually the GM will get the message.
Running away can actually be a really fun way to play a campaign. The mechanics can be pretty interesting, and it can be fun to just play a group that is so scared of everything that they run away.
8
But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
– Ling
yesterday
26
I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
– Dan B
yesterday
6
Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
– Wibbs
yesterday
1
I like this answer, but I would also appreciate if you gave more explanation, as others have mentioned.
– goodguy5
yesterday
3
Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
13
down vote
Start Running away!
Just run from every encounter (choose something fast). Avoid everything remotely risky. Eventually the GM will get the message.
Running away can actually be a really fun way to play a campaign. The mechanics can be pretty interesting, and it can be fun to just play a group that is so scared of everything that they run away.
8
But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
– Ling
yesterday
26
I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
– Dan B
yesterday
6
Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
– Wibbs
yesterday
1
I like this answer, but I would also appreciate if you gave more explanation, as others have mentioned.
– goodguy5
yesterday
3
Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
13
down vote
up vote
13
down vote
Start Running away!
Just run from every encounter (choose something fast). Avoid everything remotely risky. Eventually the GM will get the message.
Running away can actually be a really fun way to play a campaign. The mechanics can be pretty interesting, and it can be fun to just play a group that is so scared of everything that they run away.
Start Running away!
Just run from every encounter (choose something fast). Avoid everything remotely risky. Eventually the GM will get the message.
Running away can actually be a really fun way to play a campaign. The mechanics can be pretty interesting, and it can be fun to just play a group that is so scared of everything that they run away.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Mathaddict
4266
4266
8
But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
– Ling
yesterday
26
I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
– Dan B
yesterday
6
Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
– Wibbs
yesterday
1
I like this answer, but I would also appreciate if you gave more explanation, as others have mentioned.
– goodguy5
yesterday
3
Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
8
But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
– Ling
yesterday
26
I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
– Dan B
yesterday
6
Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
– Wibbs
yesterday
1
I like this answer, but I would also appreciate if you gave more explanation, as others have mentioned.
– goodguy5
yesterday
3
Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
8
8
But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
– Ling
yesterday
But also let him know why you are running. Communication is important.
– Ling
yesterday
26
26
I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
– Dan B
yesterday
I've downvoted this, because it sounds like "do something that won't be fun for anyone; eventually the other party will read your mind, figure out why you're doing this awful thing, and change their behavior without you ever needing to go to the effort of communication."
– Dan B
yesterday
6
6
Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
– Wibbs
yesterday
Yeah, this seems very passive aggressive.
– Wibbs
yesterday
1
1
I like this answer, but I would also appreciate if you gave more explanation, as others have mentioned.
– goodguy5
yesterday
I like this answer, but I would also appreciate if you gave more explanation, as others have mentioned.
– goodguy5
yesterday
3
3
Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
Running away may be the right option at times, especially in a "living world" setting that does not take player level into account. With that said, doing it consistently will only frustrate everyone rather than sending an easily understood message.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
10
down vote
Step 1: Discuss with the DM the Basic Rules on How to Build an Encounter.
This part of the answer is confined to D&D 5e.
Step 1a: share this answer with your DM, as your judgment dictates.
The Basic Rules have Encounter Building guidance on pages 165-167. Sit down with the DM and work through an encounter building exercise for level 1 characters. Build together an encounter for each difficulty: Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.
Step 2: Ask DM to run one of each (difficulty) encounter at the next session.
By running encounters at each difficulty level, the DM can get a rough idea about what this edition's encounter difficulty looks like.
Then ask the DM to build and run a hard encounter that is built for a party of characters 2 levels higher than your characters.
For example: if you are all now level 2, have him build and run one for a party of level 4 characters. That's about 2000 XP adjusted. Two yetis (1400 x 1.5 = 2100) is close enough. A Wight and four Zombies would work also. (About 1800 XP adjusted)
The DM may still prefer, and your group may prefer, encounters at the
deadly and deadly-plus level. With the above approach, "how to
turn the dials up and down" will be better appreciated, as will how out-of-whack the initial encounter was for your group of three level 1 characters.
- The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
(adjusted) 8,100 encounter XP. (450 X 9 X 2.5; Basic Rules, p. 165).
That is between Hard and Deadly for a party of three 9th-level
characters. (3 x 2800 = 8,400 deadly for three 9th-level
characters).
- The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
See how it goes. There may still be a taste, at your table, for harder rather than easier encounters.
For time saving: using an online tool like Kobold Fight Club may make creating and adjusting encounter crafting easier. (Thanks @NautArch)
Step 3: ask the DM, "How's it going to be going forward?"
This is the "session 0" for your group. Lethality level is a matter of taste in RPGs. Your whole group needs to discuss this matter with the DM, once the lethality levels of varying degrees have been experienced by the group. This is a chance to grow together as a gaming group.
Vote to stay, or to go, based on the outcome of this process and the next few sessions.
No, this isn't the easy way.
But it might work. The DM might just need to get a "feel" for encounter building model for this edition. I did when I was starting out with 5e.
For Pathfinder
You can do something similar with the materials in the PFSRD, under the heading "Designing Encounters." The CR analysis and XP budgeting are similar, with the following caveat:
... Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty @Brick the Toasted
There have been similar criticisms of 5e's encounter modeling tools, but it's a place to start.
I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
– Brick the Toasted
yesterday
@BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
@BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
– TemporalWolf
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
10
down vote
Step 1: Discuss with the DM the Basic Rules on How to Build an Encounter.
This part of the answer is confined to D&D 5e.
Step 1a: share this answer with your DM, as your judgment dictates.
The Basic Rules have Encounter Building guidance on pages 165-167. Sit down with the DM and work through an encounter building exercise for level 1 characters. Build together an encounter for each difficulty: Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.
Step 2: Ask DM to run one of each (difficulty) encounter at the next session.
By running encounters at each difficulty level, the DM can get a rough idea about what this edition's encounter difficulty looks like.
Then ask the DM to build and run a hard encounter that is built for a party of characters 2 levels higher than your characters.
For example: if you are all now level 2, have him build and run one for a party of level 4 characters. That's about 2000 XP adjusted. Two yetis (1400 x 1.5 = 2100) is close enough. A Wight and four Zombies would work also. (About 1800 XP adjusted)
The DM may still prefer, and your group may prefer, encounters at the
deadly and deadly-plus level. With the above approach, "how to
turn the dials up and down" will be better appreciated, as will how out-of-whack the initial encounter was for your group of three level 1 characters.
- The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
(adjusted) 8,100 encounter XP. (450 X 9 X 2.5; Basic Rules, p. 165).
That is between Hard and Deadly for a party of three 9th-level
characters. (3 x 2800 = 8,400 deadly for three 9th-level
characters).
- The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
See how it goes. There may still be a taste, at your table, for harder rather than easier encounters.
For time saving: using an online tool like Kobold Fight Club may make creating and adjusting encounter crafting easier. (Thanks @NautArch)
Step 3: ask the DM, "How's it going to be going forward?"
This is the "session 0" for your group. Lethality level is a matter of taste in RPGs. Your whole group needs to discuss this matter with the DM, once the lethality levels of varying degrees have been experienced by the group. This is a chance to grow together as a gaming group.
Vote to stay, or to go, based on the outcome of this process and the next few sessions.
No, this isn't the easy way.
But it might work. The DM might just need to get a "feel" for encounter building model for this edition. I did when I was starting out with 5e.
For Pathfinder
You can do something similar with the materials in the PFSRD, under the heading "Designing Encounters." The CR analysis and XP budgeting are similar, with the following caveat:
... Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty @Brick the Toasted
There have been similar criticisms of 5e's encounter modeling tools, but it's a place to start.
I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
– Brick the Toasted
yesterday
@BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
@BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
– TemporalWolf
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
10
down vote
up vote
10
down vote
Step 1: Discuss with the DM the Basic Rules on How to Build an Encounter.
This part of the answer is confined to D&D 5e.
Step 1a: share this answer with your DM, as your judgment dictates.
The Basic Rules have Encounter Building guidance on pages 165-167. Sit down with the DM and work through an encounter building exercise for level 1 characters. Build together an encounter for each difficulty: Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.
Step 2: Ask DM to run one of each (difficulty) encounter at the next session.
By running encounters at each difficulty level, the DM can get a rough idea about what this edition's encounter difficulty looks like.
Then ask the DM to build and run a hard encounter that is built for a party of characters 2 levels higher than your characters.
For example: if you are all now level 2, have him build and run one for a party of level 4 characters. That's about 2000 XP adjusted. Two yetis (1400 x 1.5 = 2100) is close enough. A Wight and four Zombies would work also. (About 1800 XP adjusted)
The DM may still prefer, and your group may prefer, encounters at the
deadly and deadly-plus level. With the above approach, "how to
turn the dials up and down" will be better appreciated, as will how out-of-whack the initial encounter was for your group of three level 1 characters.
- The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
(adjusted) 8,100 encounter XP. (450 X 9 X 2.5; Basic Rules, p. 165).
That is between Hard and Deadly for a party of three 9th-level
characters. (3 x 2800 = 8,400 deadly for three 9th-level
characters).
- The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
See how it goes. There may still be a taste, at your table, for harder rather than easier encounters.
For time saving: using an online tool like Kobold Fight Club may make creating and adjusting encounter crafting easier. (Thanks @NautArch)
Step 3: ask the DM, "How's it going to be going forward?"
This is the "session 0" for your group. Lethality level is a matter of taste in RPGs. Your whole group needs to discuss this matter with the DM, once the lethality levels of varying degrees have been experienced by the group. This is a chance to grow together as a gaming group.
Vote to stay, or to go, based on the outcome of this process and the next few sessions.
No, this isn't the easy way.
But it might work. The DM might just need to get a "feel" for encounter building model for this edition. I did when I was starting out with 5e.
For Pathfinder
You can do something similar with the materials in the PFSRD, under the heading "Designing Encounters." The CR analysis and XP budgeting are similar, with the following caveat:
... Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty @Brick the Toasted
There have been similar criticisms of 5e's encounter modeling tools, but it's a place to start.
Step 1: Discuss with the DM the Basic Rules on How to Build an Encounter.
This part of the answer is confined to D&D 5e.
Step 1a: share this answer with your DM, as your judgment dictates.
The Basic Rules have Encounter Building guidance on pages 165-167. Sit down with the DM and work through an encounter building exercise for level 1 characters. Build together an encounter for each difficulty: Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.
Step 2: Ask DM to run one of each (difficulty) encounter at the next session.
By running encounters at each difficulty level, the DM can get a rough idea about what this edition's encounter difficulty looks like.
Then ask the DM to build and run a hard encounter that is built for a party of characters 2 levels higher than your characters.
For example: if you are all now level 2, have him build and run one for a party of level 4 characters. That's about 2000 XP adjusted. Two yetis (1400 x 1.5 = 2100) is close enough. A Wight and four Zombies would work also. (About 1800 XP adjusted)
The DM may still prefer, and your group may prefer, encounters at the
deadly and deadly-plus level. With the above approach, "how to
turn the dials up and down" will be better appreciated, as will how out-of-whack the initial encounter was for your group of three level 1 characters.
- The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
(adjusted) 8,100 encounter XP. (450 X 9 X 2.5; Basic Rules, p. 165).
That is between Hard and Deadly for a party of three 9th-level
characters. (3 x 2800 = 8,400 deadly for three 9th-level
characters).
- The 9 CR 2 creatures versus a party of three characters calculates to
See how it goes. There may still be a taste, at your table, for harder rather than easier encounters.
For time saving: using an online tool like Kobold Fight Club may make creating and adjusting encounter crafting easier. (Thanks @NautArch)
Step 3: ask the DM, "How's it going to be going forward?"
This is the "session 0" for your group. Lethality level is a matter of taste in RPGs. Your whole group needs to discuss this matter with the DM, once the lethality levels of varying degrees have been experienced by the group. This is a chance to grow together as a gaming group.
Vote to stay, or to go, based on the outcome of this process and the next few sessions.
No, this isn't the easy way.
But it might work. The DM might just need to get a "feel" for encounter building model for this edition. I did when I was starting out with 5e.
For Pathfinder
You can do something similar with the materials in the PFSRD, under the heading "Designing Encounters." The CR analysis and XP budgeting are similar, with the following caveat:
... Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty @Brick the Toasted
There have been similar criticisms of 5e's encounter modeling tools, but it's a place to start.
edited 10 hours ago
answered yesterday
KorvinStarmast
71.2k17224392
71.2k17224392
I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
– Brick the Toasted
yesterday
@BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
@BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
– TemporalWolf
yesterday
add a comment |
I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
– Brick the Toasted
yesterday
@BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
@BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
– TemporalWolf
yesterday
I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
– Brick the Toasted
yesterday
I'm not sure I'd suggest this approach for Pathfinder - its CR system is pretty imprecise. I've seen a group of already battered, exhausted level 2 characters handle an EL 8 encounter with only one death, and I've seen the same players nearly TPK'd by an EL 8 encounter at level 7. There's a lot of variation even within a narrow CR range, depending on the players' and DM's respective tactics, the specific creatures and capabilities in play, and the whims of the dice. As a result, the stated guidelines tend to be fairly unhelpful for GMs looking to achieve a reasonable encounter difficulty.
– Brick the Toasted
yesterday
@BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
@BricktheToasted Similar criticisms vis a vis 5e's CR based tools for encounter building. I added your caveat.
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
@BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
– TemporalWolf
yesterday
@BricktheToasted I'd say the encounters given show the DM needs help building encounters... they aren't even in the right ballpark. It's like throwing a baby to a pack of wolves.
– TemporalWolf
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
You provide no information about the GM, so be in dubio pro reo and talk to him outside the game and start by assuming that you missed something.
As a GM, I never throw an impossible encounter to my characters unless we are playing Paranoia or Cthulhu. In the first case a TPK at least once an evening is expected and in the 2nd case running away is the default choice of any sane character anyways.
So it is quite possible that your GM had assumed that you would know the critters can be splashed with regular water and will panic. Or that you actually had that magic crossbow the bard always talks about. Or that the wizard would use all his spells in this encounter which clearly required full power, or, or, or.
Your first question could be if he expected you to win, lose or evade the encounter.
Since it sounds like you are not playing with this GM so often, check if maybe his regular group likes tough encounters. Or he is used to them using every tiny advantage in the rules so that he needs to turn up the monster levels to keep encounters a challenge.
Unless the GM is being deliberately unfair - which you should only conclude after examining other answers first - it appears that somewhere wrong assumptions were made. By you or by the GM. A discussion can clear that up, if nobody is pushed into defending themselves.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
You provide no information about the GM, so be in dubio pro reo and talk to him outside the game and start by assuming that you missed something.
As a GM, I never throw an impossible encounter to my characters unless we are playing Paranoia or Cthulhu. In the first case a TPK at least once an evening is expected and in the 2nd case running away is the default choice of any sane character anyways.
So it is quite possible that your GM had assumed that you would know the critters can be splashed with regular water and will panic. Or that you actually had that magic crossbow the bard always talks about. Or that the wizard would use all his spells in this encounter which clearly required full power, or, or, or.
Your first question could be if he expected you to win, lose or evade the encounter.
Since it sounds like you are not playing with this GM so often, check if maybe his regular group likes tough encounters. Or he is used to them using every tiny advantage in the rules so that he needs to turn up the monster levels to keep encounters a challenge.
Unless the GM is being deliberately unfair - which you should only conclude after examining other answers first - it appears that somewhere wrong assumptions were made. By you or by the GM. A discussion can clear that up, if nobody is pushed into defending themselves.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
You provide no information about the GM, so be in dubio pro reo and talk to him outside the game and start by assuming that you missed something.
As a GM, I never throw an impossible encounter to my characters unless we are playing Paranoia or Cthulhu. In the first case a TPK at least once an evening is expected and in the 2nd case running away is the default choice of any sane character anyways.
So it is quite possible that your GM had assumed that you would know the critters can be splashed with regular water and will panic. Or that you actually had that magic crossbow the bard always talks about. Or that the wizard would use all his spells in this encounter which clearly required full power, or, or, or.
Your first question could be if he expected you to win, lose or evade the encounter.
Since it sounds like you are not playing with this GM so often, check if maybe his regular group likes tough encounters. Or he is used to them using every tiny advantage in the rules so that he needs to turn up the monster levels to keep encounters a challenge.
Unless the GM is being deliberately unfair - which you should only conclude after examining other answers first - it appears that somewhere wrong assumptions were made. By you or by the GM. A discussion can clear that up, if nobody is pushed into defending themselves.
You provide no information about the GM, so be in dubio pro reo and talk to him outside the game and start by assuming that you missed something.
As a GM, I never throw an impossible encounter to my characters unless we are playing Paranoia or Cthulhu. In the first case a TPK at least once an evening is expected and in the 2nd case running away is the default choice of any sane character anyways.
So it is quite possible that your GM had assumed that you would know the critters can be splashed with regular water and will panic. Or that you actually had that magic crossbow the bard always talks about. Or that the wizard would use all his spells in this encounter which clearly required full power, or, or, or.
Your first question could be if he expected you to win, lose or evade the encounter.
Since it sounds like you are not playing with this GM so often, check if maybe his regular group likes tough encounters. Or he is used to them using every tiny advantage in the rules so that he needs to turn up the monster levels to keep encounters a challenge.
Unless the GM is being deliberately unfair - which you should only conclude after examining other answers first - it appears that somewhere wrong assumptions were made. By you or by the GM. A discussion can clear that up, if nobody is pushed into defending themselves.
edited 15 hours ago
Wibbs
14.5k64389
14.5k64389
answered 15 hours ago
Tom
1,00525
1,00525
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add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
That encounter isn't for fighting
My first run as DM, I threw a beholder at a level 2 party. They were like "Nope, not gonna fight that". Which worked out well, because the beholder didn't want to fight the party either, he had other problems. Ones with synergy to the goals of a level 2 good-aligned party.
Obviously that was a quest progression encounter. That's exactly how you should treat impossible fights like this. But hold on.
Force protection is the first priority. It's better to miss the story opportunity than have a TPK searching for quest lore on the tips of their swords.
But (usually at least), the encounter wasn't "for no reason". The DM needs to be granted a reasonable opportunity for the purpose of the encounter to unfold. So that's the puzzle.
Now there's a tendency these days for folks to assume the other fellow is a moron. Easy to fall into. Don't. So "the DM sucks" may be the answer to the puzzle, but it's not the way to bet.
Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
– KorvinStarmast
10 hours ago
double negative
– Wyrmwood
4 hours ago
@Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
– Harper
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
That encounter isn't for fighting
My first run as DM, I threw a beholder at a level 2 party. They were like "Nope, not gonna fight that". Which worked out well, because the beholder didn't want to fight the party either, he had other problems. Ones with synergy to the goals of a level 2 good-aligned party.
Obviously that was a quest progression encounter. That's exactly how you should treat impossible fights like this. But hold on.
Force protection is the first priority. It's better to miss the story opportunity than have a TPK searching for quest lore on the tips of their swords.
But (usually at least), the encounter wasn't "for no reason". The DM needs to be granted a reasonable opportunity for the purpose of the encounter to unfold. So that's the puzzle.
Now there's a tendency these days for folks to assume the other fellow is a moron. Easy to fall into. Don't. So "the DM sucks" may be the answer to the puzzle, but it's not the way to bet.
Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
– KorvinStarmast
10 hours ago
double negative
– Wyrmwood
4 hours ago
@Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
– Harper
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
That encounter isn't for fighting
My first run as DM, I threw a beholder at a level 2 party. They were like "Nope, not gonna fight that". Which worked out well, because the beholder didn't want to fight the party either, he had other problems. Ones with synergy to the goals of a level 2 good-aligned party.
Obviously that was a quest progression encounter. That's exactly how you should treat impossible fights like this. But hold on.
Force protection is the first priority. It's better to miss the story opportunity than have a TPK searching for quest lore on the tips of their swords.
But (usually at least), the encounter wasn't "for no reason". The DM needs to be granted a reasonable opportunity for the purpose of the encounter to unfold. So that's the puzzle.
Now there's a tendency these days for folks to assume the other fellow is a moron. Easy to fall into. Don't. So "the DM sucks" may be the answer to the puzzle, but it's not the way to bet.
That encounter isn't for fighting
My first run as DM, I threw a beholder at a level 2 party. They were like "Nope, not gonna fight that". Which worked out well, because the beholder didn't want to fight the party either, he had other problems. Ones with synergy to the goals of a level 2 good-aligned party.
Obviously that was a quest progression encounter. That's exactly how you should treat impossible fights like this. But hold on.
Force protection is the first priority. It's better to miss the story opportunity than have a TPK searching for quest lore on the tips of their swords.
But (usually at least), the encounter wasn't "for no reason". The DM needs to be granted a reasonable opportunity for the purpose of the encounter to unfold. So that's the puzzle.
Now there's a tendency these days for folks to assume the other fellow is a moron. Easy to fall into. Don't. So "the DM sucks" may be the answer to the puzzle, but it's not the way to bet.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
Harper
67936
67936
Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
– KorvinStarmast
10 hours ago
double negative
– Wyrmwood
4 hours ago
@Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
– Harper
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
– KorvinStarmast
10 hours ago
double negative
– Wyrmwood
4 hours ago
@Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
– Harper
4 hours ago
Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
– KorvinStarmast
10 hours ago
Good answer, and nicely framed as 'outside of the run of the mill response' ... I like answers like this.
– KorvinStarmast
10 hours ago
double negative
– Wyrmwood
4 hours ago
double negative
– Wyrmwood
4 hours ago
@Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
– Harper
4 hours ago
@Wyrmwood for flavor. Because I'm negating something, I need at least one. The statement sums up to positive, so it needs an even number. Come to think of it, what I'm negating is itself a negative notion, i.e. "For no reason". I enquoted it to make it clearer.
– Harper
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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Related: How can I suggest the DM stop trying to kill us?
– Sdjz
yesterday
4
I have added relevent information from your comments into your question because they are valuable information. In future please consider doing this yourself. Better questions get better answers! And comments are only temporary so anything that you (or others) think is important should be edited into the question. :)
– Rubiksmoose
yesterday
Please do not answer in comments.
– mxyzplk♦
9 hours ago
1
What happened in these encounters? Did you win? Was it a TPK?
– Tim B
8 hours ago
@TimB: The question says both encounters were TPKs.
– user2357112
5 hours ago