Is $cos(frac x6) cdot cos( frac {x cdot pi}{6})$ periodic?
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
Aim : To obtain the period of $cos(x/6)cos(xpi/6)$, if it exists
What I've done as of now :
$$cosleft(frac x6right)cosleft(frac {xpi}{6}right)
= frac{1}{2} cdot left[cosleft(frac {x(pi+1)}{6}right) + cosleft(frac {x cdot (pi-1)}{6}right)right].$$
And since both, $cos(x)$ components are in summation therefore individually calculating the periods and then taking LCM of them should do the trick.
However, the main issue comes over here. If I use the $2{pi}k$ thing, then the period for the first component comes out to be $frac{12pi}{pi + 1}$ for the first one and $frac{12pi}{pi - 1}$ for the second component. Thus making the function look non-periodic.
The above picture to me appears to be periodic.
Issue : I'm still in a state of confusion because of the result that I calculated above and the graph obtained below. How to resolve this discrepancy?
real-analysis trigonometry periodic-functions
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
Aim : To obtain the period of $cos(x/6)cos(xpi/6)$, if it exists
What I've done as of now :
$$cosleft(frac x6right)cosleft(frac {xpi}{6}right)
= frac{1}{2} cdot left[cosleft(frac {x(pi+1)}{6}right) + cosleft(frac {x cdot (pi-1)}{6}right)right].$$
And since both, $cos(x)$ components are in summation therefore individually calculating the periods and then taking LCM of them should do the trick.
However, the main issue comes over here. If I use the $2{pi}k$ thing, then the period for the first component comes out to be $frac{12pi}{pi + 1}$ for the first one and $frac{12pi}{pi - 1}$ for the second component. Thus making the function look non-periodic.
The above picture to me appears to be periodic.
Issue : I'm still in a state of confusion because of the result that I calculated above and the graph obtained below. How to resolve this discrepancy?
real-analysis trigonometry periodic-functions
New contributor
Related: math.stackexchange.com/questions/681750/…
– b00n heT
Nov 17 at 10:46
Use mathworld.wolfram.com/WernerFormulas.html and math.stackexchange.com/questions/873723/…
– lab bhattacharjee
Nov 17 at 10:47
You cannot answer this with a graph. Replace the $pi$ in your formula with any rational number and it would be periodic but with any irrational number, such as $pi$, it won't be. However, since you can find rational numbers arbitrarily close to $pi$, you can get very close approximations which are periodic. If you created that graph with a computer then it will be periodic as you will not have used $pi$, just a fairly good approximation. Floating point numbers in a point (regardless of the precision) are rational.
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:54
$*$ for multiplication is a bit too computery. In maths, multiplication is usually indicated just by adjacency. If you must be explicit then use $times$. $cos(frac x6)cos( frac {pi x}{6})$
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:58
Got it. Thanks a lot. So from now on I'll refrain from comparing mathematical results like these with the graphs/results obtained via approximation.
– Argon
Nov 17 at 11:23
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
Aim : To obtain the period of $cos(x/6)cos(xpi/6)$, if it exists
What I've done as of now :
$$cosleft(frac x6right)cosleft(frac {xpi}{6}right)
= frac{1}{2} cdot left[cosleft(frac {x(pi+1)}{6}right) + cosleft(frac {x cdot (pi-1)}{6}right)right].$$
And since both, $cos(x)$ components are in summation therefore individually calculating the periods and then taking LCM of them should do the trick.
However, the main issue comes over here. If I use the $2{pi}k$ thing, then the period for the first component comes out to be $frac{12pi}{pi + 1}$ for the first one and $frac{12pi}{pi - 1}$ for the second component. Thus making the function look non-periodic.
The above picture to me appears to be periodic.
Issue : I'm still in a state of confusion because of the result that I calculated above and the graph obtained below. How to resolve this discrepancy?
real-analysis trigonometry periodic-functions
New contributor
Aim : To obtain the period of $cos(x/6)cos(xpi/6)$, if it exists
What I've done as of now :
$$cosleft(frac x6right)cosleft(frac {xpi}{6}right)
= frac{1}{2} cdot left[cosleft(frac {x(pi+1)}{6}right) + cosleft(frac {x cdot (pi-1)}{6}right)right].$$
And since both, $cos(x)$ components are in summation therefore individually calculating the periods and then taking LCM of them should do the trick.
However, the main issue comes over here. If I use the $2{pi}k$ thing, then the period for the first component comes out to be $frac{12pi}{pi + 1}$ for the first one and $frac{12pi}{pi - 1}$ for the second component. Thus making the function look non-periodic.
The above picture to me appears to be periodic.
Issue : I'm still in a state of confusion because of the result that I calculated above and the graph obtained below. How to resolve this discrepancy?
real-analysis trigonometry periodic-functions
real-analysis trigonometry periodic-functions
New contributor
New contributor
edited Nov 17 at 11:19
amWhy
191k27223437
191k27223437
New contributor
asked Nov 17 at 10:41
Argon
204
204
New contributor
New contributor
Related: math.stackexchange.com/questions/681750/…
– b00n heT
Nov 17 at 10:46
Use mathworld.wolfram.com/WernerFormulas.html and math.stackexchange.com/questions/873723/…
– lab bhattacharjee
Nov 17 at 10:47
You cannot answer this with a graph. Replace the $pi$ in your formula with any rational number and it would be periodic but with any irrational number, such as $pi$, it won't be. However, since you can find rational numbers arbitrarily close to $pi$, you can get very close approximations which are periodic. If you created that graph with a computer then it will be periodic as you will not have used $pi$, just a fairly good approximation. Floating point numbers in a point (regardless of the precision) are rational.
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:54
$*$ for multiplication is a bit too computery. In maths, multiplication is usually indicated just by adjacency. If you must be explicit then use $times$. $cos(frac x6)cos( frac {pi x}{6})$
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:58
Got it. Thanks a lot. So from now on I'll refrain from comparing mathematical results like these with the graphs/results obtained via approximation.
– Argon
Nov 17 at 11:23
add a comment |
Related: math.stackexchange.com/questions/681750/…
– b00n heT
Nov 17 at 10:46
Use mathworld.wolfram.com/WernerFormulas.html and math.stackexchange.com/questions/873723/…
– lab bhattacharjee
Nov 17 at 10:47
You cannot answer this with a graph. Replace the $pi$ in your formula with any rational number and it would be periodic but with any irrational number, such as $pi$, it won't be. However, since you can find rational numbers arbitrarily close to $pi$, you can get very close approximations which are periodic. If you created that graph with a computer then it will be periodic as you will not have used $pi$, just a fairly good approximation. Floating point numbers in a point (regardless of the precision) are rational.
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:54
$*$ for multiplication is a bit too computery. In maths, multiplication is usually indicated just by adjacency. If you must be explicit then use $times$. $cos(frac x6)cos( frac {pi x}{6})$
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:58
Got it. Thanks a lot. So from now on I'll refrain from comparing mathematical results like these with the graphs/results obtained via approximation.
– Argon
Nov 17 at 11:23
Related: math.stackexchange.com/questions/681750/…
– b00n heT
Nov 17 at 10:46
Related: math.stackexchange.com/questions/681750/…
– b00n heT
Nov 17 at 10:46
Use mathworld.wolfram.com/WernerFormulas.html and math.stackexchange.com/questions/873723/…
– lab bhattacharjee
Nov 17 at 10:47
Use mathworld.wolfram.com/WernerFormulas.html and math.stackexchange.com/questions/873723/…
– lab bhattacharjee
Nov 17 at 10:47
You cannot answer this with a graph. Replace the $pi$ in your formula with any rational number and it would be periodic but with any irrational number, such as $pi$, it won't be. However, since you can find rational numbers arbitrarily close to $pi$, you can get very close approximations which are periodic. If you created that graph with a computer then it will be periodic as you will not have used $pi$, just a fairly good approximation. Floating point numbers in a point (regardless of the precision) are rational.
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:54
You cannot answer this with a graph. Replace the $pi$ in your formula with any rational number and it would be periodic but with any irrational number, such as $pi$, it won't be. However, since you can find rational numbers arbitrarily close to $pi$, you can get very close approximations which are periodic. If you created that graph with a computer then it will be periodic as you will not have used $pi$, just a fairly good approximation. Floating point numbers in a point (regardless of the precision) are rational.
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:54
$*$ for multiplication is a bit too computery. In maths, multiplication is usually indicated just by adjacency. If you must be explicit then use $times$. $cos(frac x6)cos( frac {pi x}{6})$
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:58
$*$ for multiplication is a bit too computery. In maths, multiplication is usually indicated just by adjacency. If you must be explicit then use $times$. $cos(frac x6)cos( frac {pi x}{6})$
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:58
Got it. Thanks a lot. So from now on I'll refrain from comparing mathematical results like these with the graphs/results obtained via approximation.
– Argon
Nov 17 at 11:23
Got it. Thanks a lot. So from now on I'll refrain from comparing mathematical results like these with the graphs/results obtained via approximation.
– Argon
Nov 17 at 11:23
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
The previous question linked by b00n het discusses the sum of two periodic functions but the same argument applies to the product.
Sum of two periodic functions is periodic?
The answer is that the sum or product of two periodic functions is periodic if and only if the ratio of their periods is rational. If the ratio of the periods is not rational then you cannot calculate the LCM. Even if the ratio of the periods is rational, the period of the sum or product will not necessarily be the LCM of the periods of components; it could be shorter. What's the period of $sin(x)$, $sin(x) - sin(x)$, and $sin(x) times sin(x)$? However it won't be longer. The sum or product will either be constant or its period will be the LCM divided by an integer.
Consider $sin(x) times sin(3.14159 x)$, what's its period? It's rather large: $628318 times pi$. How about $sin(x) times sin(3.1415926535 x)$?
The point of these examples is that they are close approximations to $sin(x) times sin(pi x)$. You would need a very wide or very accurate graph to tell them apart. If your graph was wide enough then you would notice that $sin(x) times sin(pi x)$ would drift slowly from these approximations.
Another thing to consider is whether $sin(pi x)$ could share a zero with $sin(x)$ other than at $x = 0$. It should be obvious that this would only be possible if $pi$ was rational. However, name any non-zero error margin and it will come within that margin eventually.
Finally note that a computer generated graph, at least one which uses standard floating point arithmetic, will never show this since any value than can be stored in floating point format, regardless of the precision, will be rational. Even if you used some fancy techniques that overcame this, you could still not distinguish the periodic and non-periodic cases without an infinite size and precision graph.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Suppose $cos(ax)+cos(bx)$ is periodic with period $T>0$. Then $cos(aT)+cos(bT)=2$, but also $cos(2aT)+cos(2bT)=2$, which translates into
$$
2cos^2(aT)+2cos^2(bT)-2=2
$$
that is, $cos^2(aT)+cos^2(bT)=2$. Using $x^2+y^2=(x+y)-2xy$, we obtain
$$
4-2cos(aT)cos(bT)=2
$$
that is $cos(aT)cos(bT)=1$. Hence, we need $cos(aT)=cos(bT)=1$.
Hence $aT=2mpi$ and $bT=2npi$, for some (nonzero) integers $m$ and $n$. In particular,
$$
frac{a}{b}=frac{m}{n}
$$
is rational. In your case
$$
frac{a}{b}=frac{pi+1}{pi-1}=r
$$
with rational $r$ would imply
$$
pi=frac{r+1}{r-1}
$$
is rational.
..thus making $pi$ rational, in contradiction to our belief. Thanks a lot for this explanation. I will probably use this process to solve any future questions of the same kind.
– Argon
Nov 18 at 12:58
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
The previous question linked by b00n het discusses the sum of two periodic functions but the same argument applies to the product.
Sum of two periodic functions is periodic?
The answer is that the sum or product of two periodic functions is periodic if and only if the ratio of their periods is rational. If the ratio of the periods is not rational then you cannot calculate the LCM. Even if the ratio of the periods is rational, the period of the sum or product will not necessarily be the LCM of the periods of components; it could be shorter. What's the period of $sin(x)$, $sin(x) - sin(x)$, and $sin(x) times sin(x)$? However it won't be longer. The sum or product will either be constant or its period will be the LCM divided by an integer.
Consider $sin(x) times sin(3.14159 x)$, what's its period? It's rather large: $628318 times pi$. How about $sin(x) times sin(3.1415926535 x)$?
The point of these examples is that they are close approximations to $sin(x) times sin(pi x)$. You would need a very wide or very accurate graph to tell them apart. If your graph was wide enough then you would notice that $sin(x) times sin(pi x)$ would drift slowly from these approximations.
Another thing to consider is whether $sin(pi x)$ could share a zero with $sin(x)$ other than at $x = 0$. It should be obvious that this would only be possible if $pi$ was rational. However, name any non-zero error margin and it will come within that margin eventually.
Finally note that a computer generated graph, at least one which uses standard floating point arithmetic, will never show this since any value than can be stored in floating point format, regardless of the precision, will be rational. Even if you used some fancy techniques that overcame this, you could still not distinguish the periodic and non-periodic cases without an infinite size and precision graph.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
The previous question linked by b00n het discusses the sum of two periodic functions but the same argument applies to the product.
Sum of two periodic functions is periodic?
The answer is that the sum or product of two periodic functions is periodic if and only if the ratio of their periods is rational. If the ratio of the periods is not rational then you cannot calculate the LCM. Even if the ratio of the periods is rational, the period of the sum or product will not necessarily be the LCM of the periods of components; it could be shorter. What's the period of $sin(x)$, $sin(x) - sin(x)$, and $sin(x) times sin(x)$? However it won't be longer. The sum or product will either be constant or its period will be the LCM divided by an integer.
Consider $sin(x) times sin(3.14159 x)$, what's its period? It's rather large: $628318 times pi$. How about $sin(x) times sin(3.1415926535 x)$?
The point of these examples is that they are close approximations to $sin(x) times sin(pi x)$. You would need a very wide or very accurate graph to tell them apart. If your graph was wide enough then you would notice that $sin(x) times sin(pi x)$ would drift slowly from these approximations.
Another thing to consider is whether $sin(pi x)$ could share a zero with $sin(x)$ other than at $x = 0$. It should be obvious that this would only be possible if $pi$ was rational. However, name any non-zero error margin and it will come within that margin eventually.
Finally note that a computer generated graph, at least one which uses standard floating point arithmetic, will never show this since any value than can be stored in floating point format, regardless of the precision, will be rational. Even if you used some fancy techniques that overcame this, you could still not distinguish the periodic and non-periodic cases without an infinite size and precision graph.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
The previous question linked by b00n het discusses the sum of two periodic functions but the same argument applies to the product.
Sum of two periodic functions is periodic?
The answer is that the sum or product of two periodic functions is periodic if and only if the ratio of their periods is rational. If the ratio of the periods is not rational then you cannot calculate the LCM. Even if the ratio of the periods is rational, the period of the sum or product will not necessarily be the LCM of the periods of components; it could be shorter. What's the period of $sin(x)$, $sin(x) - sin(x)$, and $sin(x) times sin(x)$? However it won't be longer. The sum or product will either be constant or its period will be the LCM divided by an integer.
Consider $sin(x) times sin(3.14159 x)$, what's its period? It's rather large: $628318 times pi$. How about $sin(x) times sin(3.1415926535 x)$?
The point of these examples is that they are close approximations to $sin(x) times sin(pi x)$. You would need a very wide or very accurate graph to tell them apart. If your graph was wide enough then you would notice that $sin(x) times sin(pi x)$ would drift slowly from these approximations.
Another thing to consider is whether $sin(pi x)$ could share a zero with $sin(x)$ other than at $x = 0$. It should be obvious that this would only be possible if $pi$ was rational. However, name any non-zero error margin and it will come within that margin eventually.
Finally note that a computer generated graph, at least one which uses standard floating point arithmetic, will never show this since any value than can be stored in floating point format, regardless of the precision, will be rational. Even if you used some fancy techniques that overcame this, you could still not distinguish the periodic and non-periodic cases without an infinite size and precision graph.
The previous question linked by b00n het discusses the sum of two periodic functions but the same argument applies to the product.
Sum of two periodic functions is periodic?
The answer is that the sum or product of two periodic functions is periodic if and only if the ratio of their periods is rational. If the ratio of the periods is not rational then you cannot calculate the LCM. Even if the ratio of the periods is rational, the period of the sum or product will not necessarily be the LCM of the periods of components; it could be shorter. What's the period of $sin(x)$, $sin(x) - sin(x)$, and $sin(x) times sin(x)$? However it won't be longer. The sum or product will either be constant or its period will be the LCM divided by an integer.
Consider $sin(x) times sin(3.14159 x)$, what's its period? It's rather large: $628318 times pi$. How about $sin(x) times sin(3.1415926535 x)$?
The point of these examples is that they are close approximations to $sin(x) times sin(pi x)$. You would need a very wide or very accurate graph to tell them apart. If your graph was wide enough then you would notice that $sin(x) times sin(pi x)$ would drift slowly from these approximations.
Another thing to consider is whether $sin(pi x)$ could share a zero with $sin(x)$ other than at $x = 0$. It should be obvious that this would only be possible if $pi$ was rational. However, name any non-zero error margin and it will come within that margin eventually.
Finally note that a computer generated graph, at least one which uses standard floating point arithmetic, will never show this since any value than can be stored in floating point format, regardless of the precision, will be rational. Even if you used some fancy techniques that overcame this, you could still not distinguish the periodic and non-periodic cases without an infinite size and precision graph.
answered Nov 17 at 11:23
badjohn
4,1471620
4,1471620
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Suppose $cos(ax)+cos(bx)$ is periodic with period $T>0$. Then $cos(aT)+cos(bT)=2$, but also $cos(2aT)+cos(2bT)=2$, which translates into
$$
2cos^2(aT)+2cos^2(bT)-2=2
$$
that is, $cos^2(aT)+cos^2(bT)=2$. Using $x^2+y^2=(x+y)-2xy$, we obtain
$$
4-2cos(aT)cos(bT)=2
$$
that is $cos(aT)cos(bT)=1$. Hence, we need $cos(aT)=cos(bT)=1$.
Hence $aT=2mpi$ and $bT=2npi$, for some (nonzero) integers $m$ and $n$. In particular,
$$
frac{a}{b}=frac{m}{n}
$$
is rational. In your case
$$
frac{a}{b}=frac{pi+1}{pi-1}=r
$$
with rational $r$ would imply
$$
pi=frac{r+1}{r-1}
$$
is rational.
..thus making $pi$ rational, in contradiction to our belief. Thanks a lot for this explanation. I will probably use this process to solve any future questions of the same kind.
– Argon
Nov 18 at 12:58
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Suppose $cos(ax)+cos(bx)$ is periodic with period $T>0$. Then $cos(aT)+cos(bT)=2$, but also $cos(2aT)+cos(2bT)=2$, which translates into
$$
2cos^2(aT)+2cos^2(bT)-2=2
$$
that is, $cos^2(aT)+cos^2(bT)=2$. Using $x^2+y^2=(x+y)-2xy$, we obtain
$$
4-2cos(aT)cos(bT)=2
$$
that is $cos(aT)cos(bT)=1$. Hence, we need $cos(aT)=cos(bT)=1$.
Hence $aT=2mpi$ and $bT=2npi$, for some (nonzero) integers $m$ and $n$. In particular,
$$
frac{a}{b}=frac{m}{n}
$$
is rational. In your case
$$
frac{a}{b}=frac{pi+1}{pi-1}=r
$$
with rational $r$ would imply
$$
pi=frac{r+1}{r-1}
$$
is rational.
..thus making $pi$ rational, in contradiction to our belief. Thanks a lot for this explanation. I will probably use this process to solve any future questions of the same kind.
– Argon
Nov 18 at 12:58
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Suppose $cos(ax)+cos(bx)$ is periodic with period $T>0$. Then $cos(aT)+cos(bT)=2$, but also $cos(2aT)+cos(2bT)=2$, which translates into
$$
2cos^2(aT)+2cos^2(bT)-2=2
$$
that is, $cos^2(aT)+cos^2(bT)=2$. Using $x^2+y^2=(x+y)-2xy$, we obtain
$$
4-2cos(aT)cos(bT)=2
$$
that is $cos(aT)cos(bT)=1$. Hence, we need $cos(aT)=cos(bT)=1$.
Hence $aT=2mpi$ and $bT=2npi$, for some (nonzero) integers $m$ and $n$. In particular,
$$
frac{a}{b}=frac{m}{n}
$$
is rational. In your case
$$
frac{a}{b}=frac{pi+1}{pi-1}=r
$$
with rational $r$ would imply
$$
pi=frac{r+1}{r-1}
$$
is rational.
Suppose $cos(ax)+cos(bx)$ is periodic with period $T>0$. Then $cos(aT)+cos(bT)=2$, but also $cos(2aT)+cos(2bT)=2$, which translates into
$$
2cos^2(aT)+2cos^2(bT)-2=2
$$
that is, $cos^2(aT)+cos^2(bT)=2$. Using $x^2+y^2=(x+y)-2xy$, we obtain
$$
4-2cos(aT)cos(bT)=2
$$
that is $cos(aT)cos(bT)=1$. Hence, we need $cos(aT)=cos(bT)=1$.
Hence $aT=2mpi$ and $bT=2npi$, for some (nonzero) integers $m$ and $n$. In particular,
$$
frac{a}{b}=frac{m}{n}
$$
is rational. In your case
$$
frac{a}{b}=frac{pi+1}{pi-1}=r
$$
with rational $r$ would imply
$$
pi=frac{r+1}{r-1}
$$
is rational.
answered Nov 17 at 11:57
egreg
173k1383198
173k1383198
..thus making $pi$ rational, in contradiction to our belief. Thanks a lot for this explanation. I will probably use this process to solve any future questions of the same kind.
– Argon
Nov 18 at 12:58
add a comment |
..thus making $pi$ rational, in contradiction to our belief. Thanks a lot for this explanation. I will probably use this process to solve any future questions of the same kind.
– Argon
Nov 18 at 12:58
..thus making $pi$ rational, in contradiction to our belief. Thanks a lot for this explanation. I will probably use this process to solve any future questions of the same kind.
– Argon
Nov 18 at 12:58
..thus making $pi$ rational, in contradiction to our belief. Thanks a lot for this explanation. I will probably use this process to solve any future questions of the same kind.
– Argon
Nov 18 at 12:58
add a comment |
Argon is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Argon is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Argon is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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Related: math.stackexchange.com/questions/681750/…
– b00n heT
Nov 17 at 10:46
Use mathworld.wolfram.com/WernerFormulas.html and math.stackexchange.com/questions/873723/…
– lab bhattacharjee
Nov 17 at 10:47
You cannot answer this with a graph. Replace the $pi$ in your formula with any rational number and it would be periodic but with any irrational number, such as $pi$, it won't be. However, since you can find rational numbers arbitrarily close to $pi$, you can get very close approximations which are periodic. If you created that graph with a computer then it will be periodic as you will not have used $pi$, just a fairly good approximation. Floating point numbers in a point (regardless of the precision) are rational.
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:54
$*$ for multiplication is a bit too computery. In maths, multiplication is usually indicated just by adjacency. If you must be explicit then use $times$. $cos(frac x6)cos( frac {pi x}{6})$
– badjohn
Nov 17 at 10:58
Got it. Thanks a lot. So from now on I'll refrain from comparing mathematical results like these with the graphs/results obtained via approximation.
– Argon
Nov 17 at 11:23