What's the definition of coherent topology in Munkres Topology?











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Munkres Topology. In Section 71, coherent is "if" but on Wikipedia (Coherent topology), it's "if and only if"



enter image description here



This can be seen in Example 1 of Section 83



enter image description here



We suppose $D cap A_{alpha}$ is closed in $A_{alpha}$ and then must show $D$ is closed in $X$. I don't think we also suppose $D$ is closed in $X$ and then show that the $D cap A_{alpha}$'s are closed.



But in the definition of subgraph (also in Section 83), coherent is "if and only if" (I am aware of the errata by Barbara and Jim Munkres for this definition but irrelevant I think).



enter image description here



I was expecting to see that we suppose $D cap A_{beta}$ is closed in $A_{beta}$ and then must show $D$ is closed in $Y$, but we actually also show We suppose $D$ is closed in $X$ and then show that the $D cap A_{alpha}$'s are closed.



What's going on?



My guess (I came up with one only after typing it all up)



Definitions are "if and only if". If there is no specified topology for a space $Z$, then coherence is just "if" and then "only if" follows because coherence is the definition. If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology.



I think I figured it out, but I might as well just submit this since I already typed it up.










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    up vote
    0
    down vote

    favorite












    Munkres Topology. In Section 71, coherent is "if" but on Wikipedia (Coherent topology), it's "if and only if"



    enter image description here



    This can be seen in Example 1 of Section 83



    enter image description here



    We suppose $D cap A_{alpha}$ is closed in $A_{alpha}$ and then must show $D$ is closed in $X$. I don't think we also suppose $D$ is closed in $X$ and then show that the $D cap A_{alpha}$'s are closed.



    But in the definition of subgraph (also in Section 83), coherent is "if and only if" (I am aware of the errata by Barbara and Jim Munkres for this definition but irrelevant I think).



    enter image description here



    I was expecting to see that we suppose $D cap A_{beta}$ is closed in $A_{beta}$ and then must show $D$ is closed in $Y$, but we actually also show We suppose $D$ is closed in $X$ and then show that the $D cap A_{alpha}$'s are closed.



    What's going on?



    My guess (I came up with one only after typing it all up)



    Definitions are "if and only if". If there is no specified topology for a space $Z$, then coherence is just "if" and then "only if" follows because coherence is the definition. If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology.



    I think I figured it out, but I might as well just submit this since I already typed it up.










    share|cite|improve this question
























      up vote
      0
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      0
      down vote

      favorite











      Munkres Topology. In Section 71, coherent is "if" but on Wikipedia (Coherent topology), it's "if and only if"



      enter image description here



      This can be seen in Example 1 of Section 83



      enter image description here



      We suppose $D cap A_{alpha}$ is closed in $A_{alpha}$ and then must show $D$ is closed in $X$. I don't think we also suppose $D$ is closed in $X$ and then show that the $D cap A_{alpha}$'s are closed.



      But in the definition of subgraph (also in Section 83), coherent is "if and only if" (I am aware of the errata by Barbara and Jim Munkres for this definition but irrelevant I think).



      enter image description here



      I was expecting to see that we suppose $D cap A_{beta}$ is closed in $A_{beta}$ and then must show $D$ is closed in $Y$, but we actually also show We suppose $D$ is closed in $X$ and then show that the $D cap A_{alpha}$'s are closed.



      What's going on?



      My guess (I came up with one only after typing it all up)



      Definitions are "if and only if". If there is no specified topology for a space $Z$, then coherence is just "if" and then "only if" follows because coherence is the definition. If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology.



      I think I figured it out, but I might as well just submit this since I already typed it up.










      share|cite|improve this question













      Munkres Topology. In Section 71, coherent is "if" but on Wikipedia (Coherent topology), it's "if and only if"



      enter image description here



      This can be seen in Example 1 of Section 83



      enter image description here



      We suppose $D cap A_{alpha}$ is closed in $A_{alpha}$ and then must show $D$ is closed in $X$. I don't think we also suppose $D$ is closed in $X$ and then show that the $D cap A_{alpha}$'s are closed.



      But in the definition of subgraph (also in Section 83), coherent is "if and only if" (I am aware of the errata by Barbara and Jim Munkres for this definition but irrelevant I think).



      enter image description here



      I was expecting to see that we suppose $D cap A_{beta}$ is closed in $A_{beta}$ and then must show $D$ is closed in $Y$, but we actually also show We suppose $D$ is closed in $X$ and then show that the $D cap A_{alpha}$'s are closed.



      What's going on?



      My guess (I came up with one only after typing it all up)



      Definitions are "if and only if". If there is no specified topology for a space $Z$, then coherence is just "if" and then "only if" follows because coherence is the definition. If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology.



      I think I figured it out, but I might as well just submit this since I already typed it up.







      abstract-algebra general-topology graph-theory algebraic-topology covering-spaces






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      asked Nov 15 at 7:23









      Jack Bauer

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          Definitions, by their nature, are "if and only if". This leads to some authors being lazy when writing them, and they only say "if".



          It's a common enough occurrence and something one should always be aware of. The alternative definition supplied by Munkres definitely seems to be one such case.






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • Is this correct? "If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology."
            – Jack Bauer
            Nov 15 at 7:32


















          up vote
          0
          down vote













          The notion Munkres gives is the right one in that context. $X$ already has a topology and its subspaces $X_alpha$ have the subspace topolgoy induced by it, so we already know by definition that $O$ open in $X$ implies $O cap X_alpha$ open in $X_alpha$.



          The coherence part comes from the idea that we suppose we are just given the subspace topologies on $X_alpha$ at the start (and we "forget" the topology on $X$) can we then reconstruct the topology on $X$ from these? In a coherent topology you can: you test for a subset $O$ of $X$ whether indeed each set $O cap X_alpha$ is open in the subspace topology in $X_alpha$, and if this is the case we conclude $O$ must have open in $X$, and we get exactly the original topology on $X$ back.



          Because this is the new part in coherence Munkres only states the implication of the second paragraph. The standard pasting lemma's say that any open cover of $X$ or any (locally) finite closed cover of $X$ form a coherent family for $X$.



          The coherent topology idea is used to construct the topology on a disjoint sum of spaces, and also in a CW-complex, where we glue subspaces with given topologies together to form new spaces. The graph construction is a special low-dimensional case of a CW-complex.






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            2 Answers
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            2 Answers
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            up vote
            0
            down vote













            Definitions, by their nature, are "if and only if". This leads to some authors being lazy when writing them, and they only say "if".



            It's a common enough occurrence and something one should always be aware of. The alternative definition supplied by Munkres definitely seems to be one such case.






            share|cite|improve this answer





















            • Is this correct? "If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology."
              – Jack Bauer
              Nov 15 at 7:32















            up vote
            0
            down vote













            Definitions, by their nature, are "if and only if". This leads to some authors being lazy when writing them, and they only say "if".



            It's a common enough occurrence and something one should always be aware of. The alternative definition supplied by Munkres definitely seems to be one such case.






            share|cite|improve this answer





















            • Is this correct? "If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology."
              – Jack Bauer
              Nov 15 at 7:32













            up vote
            0
            down vote










            up vote
            0
            down vote









            Definitions, by their nature, are "if and only if". This leads to some authors being lazy when writing them, and they only say "if".



            It's a common enough occurrence and something one should always be aware of. The alternative definition supplied by Munkres definitely seems to be one such case.






            share|cite|improve this answer












            Definitions, by their nature, are "if and only if". This leads to some authors being lazy when writing them, and they only say "if".



            It's a common enough occurrence and something one should always be aware of. The alternative definition supplied by Munkres definitely seems to be one such case.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Nov 15 at 7:29









            Arthur

            108k7103186




            108k7103186












            • Is this correct? "If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology."
              – Jack Bauer
              Nov 15 at 7:32


















            • Is this correct? "If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology."
              – Jack Bauer
              Nov 15 at 7:32
















            Is this correct? "If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology."
            – Jack Bauer
            Nov 15 at 7:32




            Is this correct? "If there is a specified topology on $Z$, such as it having the subspace topology of some other space, then we have to show that coherence, a condition to indicated closedness of sets, and hence openness (of those sets' complements) doesn't conflict with with our new definition of closedness given by the subspace topology."
            – Jack Bauer
            Nov 15 at 7:32










            up vote
            0
            down vote













            The notion Munkres gives is the right one in that context. $X$ already has a topology and its subspaces $X_alpha$ have the subspace topolgoy induced by it, so we already know by definition that $O$ open in $X$ implies $O cap X_alpha$ open in $X_alpha$.



            The coherence part comes from the idea that we suppose we are just given the subspace topologies on $X_alpha$ at the start (and we "forget" the topology on $X$) can we then reconstruct the topology on $X$ from these? In a coherent topology you can: you test for a subset $O$ of $X$ whether indeed each set $O cap X_alpha$ is open in the subspace topology in $X_alpha$, and if this is the case we conclude $O$ must have open in $X$, and we get exactly the original topology on $X$ back.



            Because this is the new part in coherence Munkres only states the implication of the second paragraph. The standard pasting lemma's say that any open cover of $X$ or any (locally) finite closed cover of $X$ form a coherent family for $X$.



            The coherent topology idea is used to construct the topology on a disjoint sum of spaces, and also in a CW-complex, where we glue subspaces with given topologies together to form new spaces. The graph construction is a special low-dimensional case of a CW-complex.






            share|cite|improve this answer

























              up vote
              0
              down vote













              The notion Munkres gives is the right one in that context. $X$ already has a topology and its subspaces $X_alpha$ have the subspace topolgoy induced by it, so we already know by definition that $O$ open in $X$ implies $O cap X_alpha$ open in $X_alpha$.



              The coherence part comes from the idea that we suppose we are just given the subspace topologies on $X_alpha$ at the start (and we "forget" the topology on $X$) can we then reconstruct the topology on $X$ from these? In a coherent topology you can: you test for a subset $O$ of $X$ whether indeed each set $O cap X_alpha$ is open in the subspace topology in $X_alpha$, and if this is the case we conclude $O$ must have open in $X$, and we get exactly the original topology on $X$ back.



              Because this is the new part in coherence Munkres only states the implication of the second paragraph. The standard pasting lemma's say that any open cover of $X$ or any (locally) finite closed cover of $X$ form a coherent family for $X$.



              The coherent topology idea is used to construct the topology on a disjoint sum of spaces, and also in a CW-complex, where we glue subspaces with given topologies together to form new spaces. The graph construction is a special low-dimensional case of a CW-complex.






              share|cite|improve this answer























                up vote
                0
                down vote










                up vote
                0
                down vote









                The notion Munkres gives is the right one in that context. $X$ already has a topology and its subspaces $X_alpha$ have the subspace topolgoy induced by it, so we already know by definition that $O$ open in $X$ implies $O cap X_alpha$ open in $X_alpha$.



                The coherence part comes from the idea that we suppose we are just given the subspace topologies on $X_alpha$ at the start (and we "forget" the topology on $X$) can we then reconstruct the topology on $X$ from these? In a coherent topology you can: you test for a subset $O$ of $X$ whether indeed each set $O cap X_alpha$ is open in the subspace topology in $X_alpha$, and if this is the case we conclude $O$ must have open in $X$, and we get exactly the original topology on $X$ back.



                Because this is the new part in coherence Munkres only states the implication of the second paragraph. The standard pasting lemma's say that any open cover of $X$ or any (locally) finite closed cover of $X$ form a coherent family for $X$.



                The coherent topology idea is used to construct the topology on a disjoint sum of spaces, and also in a CW-complex, where we glue subspaces with given topologies together to form new spaces. The graph construction is a special low-dimensional case of a CW-complex.






                share|cite|improve this answer












                The notion Munkres gives is the right one in that context. $X$ already has a topology and its subspaces $X_alpha$ have the subspace topolgoy induced by it, so we already know by definition that $O$ open in $X$ implies $O cap X_alpha$ open in $X_alpha$.



                The coherence part comes from the idea that we suppose we are just given the subspace topologies on $X_alpha$ at the start (and we "forget" the topology on $X$) can we then reconstruct the topology on $X$ from these? In a coherent topology you can: you test for a subset $O$ of $X$ whether indeed each set $O cap X_alpha$ is open in the subspace topology in $X_alpha$, and if this is the case we conclude $O$ must have open in $X$, and we get exactly the original topology on $X$ back.



                Because this is the new part in coherence Munkres only states the implication of the second paragraph. The standard pasting lemma's say that any open cover of $X$ or any (locally) finite closed cover of $X$ form a coherent family for $X$.



                The coherent topology idea is used to construct the topology on a disjoint sum of spaces, and also in a CW-complex, where we glue subspaces with given topologies together to form new spaces. The graph construction is a special low-dimensional case of a CW-complex.







                share|cite|improve this answer












                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer










                answered Nov 17 at 9:37









                Henno Brandsma

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