Why do E# and F♮ not sound the same (according to Wikipedia)?












6














Except from Wikipedia



I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E# are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”.



What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?









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    6














    Except from Wikipedia



    I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E# are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”.



    What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?









    share









    New contributor




    Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.























      6












      6








      6


      2





      Except from Wikipedia



      I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E# are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”.



      What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?









      share









      New contributor




      Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      Except from Wikipedia



      I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E# are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”.



      What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?







      notation





      share









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      Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      share









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      share



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      edited 1 hour ago









      topo morto

      22.8k23798




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      asked 5 hours ago









      Aran G

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          2 Answers
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          active

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          12














          The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



          ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)






          share|improve this answer





















          • So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
            – Aran G
            5 hours ago










          • @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
            – Dekkadeci
            5 hours ago



















          11














          I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



          The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



          On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



          So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






          share|improve this answer























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            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes








            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            12














            The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



            ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)






            share|improve this answer





















            • So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
              – Aran G
              5 hours ago










            • @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
              – Dekkadeci
              5 hours ago
















            12














            The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



            ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)






            share|improve this answer





















            • So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
              – Aran G
              5 hours ago










            • @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
              – Dekkadeci
              5 hours ago














            12












            12








            12






            The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



            ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)






            share|improve this answer












            The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



            ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 5 hours ago









            Dekkadeci

            4,21621018




            4,21621018












            • So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
              – Aran G
              5 hours ago










            • @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
              – Dekkadeci
              5 hours ago


















            • So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
              – Aran G
              5 hours ago










            • @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
              – Dekkadeci
              5 hours ago
















            So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
            – Aran G
            5 hours ago




            So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
            – Aran G
            5 hours ago












            @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
            – Dekkadeci
            5 hours ago




            @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
            – Dekkadeci
            5 hours ago











            11














            I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



            The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



            On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



            So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






            share|improve this answer




























              11














              I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



              The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



              On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



              So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






              share|improve this answer


























                11












                11








                11






                I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



                The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



                On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



                So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






                share|improve this answer














                I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



                The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



                On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



                So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 1 hour ago

























                answered 5 hours ago









                topo morto

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