How to show $(exists x)( forall y)varphirightarrow( forall y)(exists x)varphi $ is logically valid











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How to show $(exists x)( forall y)varphirightarrow( forall y)(exists x)varphi $ is logically valid




Here is my attempt:



Assume it's not logically valid. Then, there's an interpretation $mathscr{M}$ for which it's not true. Hence, there's a sequence $vec a$ in the domain $M$ of $mathscr{M}$ such that 1) $ vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$ and 2) $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$



1) $vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $(forall x)( exists y)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( exists y)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $varphi$



2) $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $(exists x)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $negvarphi$



Since $vec a$ satisfies both $varphi$ and $negvarphi$, which is a contradiction, then the formula must be valid.



Is it correct to show it this way?




Edit:
1) If $vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$, i.e $neg forall x(negforall y(varphi))$, then we have $vec a$ does not satisfy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$ . Then, there is at least one sequence $vec a'$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the ith component not satisfying $negforall y(varphi)$. Then, that means $vec a'$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$.
2) If $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$, i.e $( forall y)neg(forall x)(negvarphi)$, then there is at least one sequence $vec a''$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the jth component not satisfying $neg(forall x)(negvarphi)$. Then, that means $vec a''$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$.

Now, we have $vec a'$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$ and $vec a''$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$. Then, there is at least one sequence $vec a'''$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the $i$th and $j$th component satisfying $varphi$ and satisfying $negvarphi$, which is a contradiction, then the formula must be valid.




This is from the book, so I applied what's written in $2$ actually
enter image description here










share|cite|improve this question
























  • You can see Example 1.9.3, page 37 of Christopher Leary & Lars Kristiansen, A Friendly Introduction to Mathematical Logic (2nd ed 2015).
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Nov 23 at 20:43










  • It's very nice, but it uses a bit different convention from the one we use. Does mine still count, though? :)
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 20:49












  • @LeylaAlkan Perhaps I'm just confused by your conventions (I assume $vec a$ is a global variable assignment?), but what you've written does not seem to make sense. For instance, $vec a$ satisfying $exists x forall y varphi$ does not imply $vec a$ satisfies $phi.$ It holds for some $x$ (and any $y$) so you need to change the variable assignment to assign the appropriate value to $x.$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    Nov 23 at 21:15












  • See my edit where I explain why I did it this way @spaceisdarkgreen
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 21:19










  • @LeylaAlkan That's Mendelson, I assume? I don't see any resemblance between what's written in $2$ and what you wrote. (You're going to have to use the rule for quantifiers at some point...)
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    Nov 23 at 21:20

















up vote
6
down vote

favorite
1













How to show $(exists x)( forall y)varphirightarrow( forall y)(exists x)varphi $ is logically valid




Here is my attempt:



Assume it's not logically valid. Then, there's an interpretation $mathscr{M}$ for which it's not true. Hence, there's a sequence $vec a$ in the domain $M$ of $mathscr{M}$ such that 1) $ vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$ and 2) $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$



1) $vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $(forall x)( exists y)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( exists y)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $varphi$



2) $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $(exists x)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $negvarphi$



Since $vec a$ satisfies both $varphi$ and $negvarphi$, which is a contradiction, then the formula must be valid.



Is it correct to show it this way?




Edit:
1) If $vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$, i.e $neg forall x(negforall y(varphi))$, then we have $vec a$ does not satisfy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$ . Then, there is at least one sequence $vec a'$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the ith component not satisfying $negforall y(varphi)$. Then, that means $vec a'$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$.
2) If $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$, i.e $( forall y)neg(forall x)(negvarphi)$, then there is at least one sequence $vec a''$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the jth component not satisfying $neg(forall x)(negvarphi)$. Then, that means $vec a''$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$.

Now, we have $vec a'$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$ and $vec a''$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$. Then, there is at least one sequence $vec a'''$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the $i$th and $j$th component satisfying $varphi$ and satisfying $negvarphi$, which is a contradiction, then the formula must be valid.




This is from the book, so I applied what's written in $2$ actually
enter image description here










share|cite|improve this question
























  • You can see Example 1.9.3, page 37 of Christopher Leary & Lars Kristiansen, A Friendly Introduction to Mathematical Logic (2nd ed 2015).
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Nov 23 at 20:43










  • It's very nice, but it uses a bit different convention from the one we use. Does mine still count, though? :)
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 20:49












  • @LeylaAlkan Perhaps I'm just confused by your conventions (I assume $vec a$ is a global variable assignment?), but what you've written does not seem to make sense. For instance, $vec a$ satisfying $exists x forall y varphi$ does not imply $vec a$ satisfies $phi.$ It holds for some $x$ (and any $y$) so you need to change the variable assignment to assign the appropriate value to $x.$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    Nov 23 at 21:15












  • See my edit where I explain why I did it this way @spaceisdarkgreen
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 21:19










  • @LeylaAlkan That's Mendelson, I assume? I don't see any resemblance between what's written in $2$ and what you wrote. (You're going to have to use the rule for quantifiers at some point...)
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    Nov 23 at 21:20















up vote
6
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
6
down vote

favorite
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1






How to show $(exists x)( forall y)varphirightarrow( forall y)(exists x)varphi $ is logically valid




Here is my attempt:



Assume it's not logically valid. Then, there's an interpretation $mathscr{M}$ for which it's not true. Hence, there's a sequence $vec a$ in the domain $M$ of $mathscr{M}$ such that 1) $ vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$ and 2) $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$



1) $vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $(forall x)( exists y)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( exists y)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $varphi$



2) $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $(exists x)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $negvarphi$



Since $vec a$ satisfies both $varphi$ and $negvarphi$, which is a contradiction, then the formula must be valid.



Is it correct to show it this way?




Edit:
1) If $vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$, i.e $neg forall x(negforall y(varphi))$, then we have $vec a$ does not satisfy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$ . Then, there is at least one sequence $vec a'$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the ith component not satisfying $negforall y(varphi)$. Then, that means $vec a'$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$.
2) If $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$, i.e $( forall y)neg(forall x)(negvarphi)$, then there is at least one sequence $vec a''$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the jth component not satisfying $neg(forall x)(negvarphi)$. Then, that means $vec a''$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$.

Now, we have $vec a'$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$ and $vec a''$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$. Then, there is at least one sequence $vec a'''$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the $i$th and $j$th component satisfying $varphi$ and satisfying $negvarphi$, which is a contradiction, then the formula must be valid.




This is from the book, so I applied what's written in $2$ actually
enter image description here










share|cite|improve this question
















How to show $(exists x)( forall y)varphirightarrow( forall y)(exists x)varphi $ is logically valid




Here is my attempt:



Assume it's not logically valid. Then, there's an interpretation $mathscr{M}$ for which it's not true. Hence, there's a sequence $vec a$ in the domain $M$ of $mathscr{M}$ such that 1) $ vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$ and 2) $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$



1) $vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $(forall x)( exists y)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( exists y)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $varphi$



2) $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $(exists x)varphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$ $iff$ $vec a$ satisfies $negvarphi$



Since $vec a$ satisfies both $varphi$ and $negvarphi$, which is a contradiction, then the formula must be valid.



Is it correct to show it this way?




Edit:
1) If $vec a$ satisfies $(exists x)( forall y)varphi$, i.e $neg forall x(negforall y(varphi))$, then we have $vec a$ does not satisfy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$ . Then, there is at least one sequence $vec a'$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the ith component not satisfying $negforall y(varphi)$. Then, that means $vec a'$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$.
2) If $vec a$ doesn't satisfy $( forall y)(exists x)varphi$, i.e $( forall y)neg(forall x)(negvarphi)$, then there is at least one sequence $vec a''$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the jth component not satisfying $neg(forall x)(negvarphi)$. Then, that means $vec a''$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$.

Now, we have $vec a'$ satisfies $( forall y)varphi$ and $vec a''$ satisfies $(forall x)negvarphi$. Then, there is at least one sequence $vec a'''$ differing from $vec a$ in at most the $i$th and $j$th component satisfying $varphi$ and satisfying $negvarphi$, which is a contradiction, then the formula must be valid.




This is from the book, so I applied what's written in $2$ actually
enter image description here







logic predicate-logic






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 25 at 20:56

























asked Nov 23 at 20:19









Leyla Alkan

1,5411723




1,5411723












  • You can see Example 1.9.3, page 37 of Christopher Leary & Lars Kristiansen, A Friendly Introduction to Mathematical Logic (2nd ed 2015).
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Nov 23 at 20:43










  • It's very nice, but it uses a bit different convention from the one we use. Does mine still count, though? :)
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 20:49












  • @LeylaAlkan Perhaps I'm just confused by your conventions (I assume $vec a$ is a global variable assignment?), but what you've written does not seem to make sense. For instance, $vec a$ satisfying $exists x forall y varphi$ does not imply $vec a$ satisfies $phi.$ It holds for some $x$ (and any $y$) so you need to change the variable assignment to assign the appropriate value to $x.$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    Nov 23 at 21:15












  • See my edit where I explain why I did it this way @spaceisdarkgreen
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 21:19










  • @LeylaAlkan That's Mendelson, I assume? I don't see any resemblance between what's written in $2$ and what you wrote. (You're going to have to use the rule for quantifiers at some point...)
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    Nov 23 at 21:20




















  • You can see Example 1.9.3, page 37 of Christopher Leary & Lars Kristiansen, A Friendly Introduction to Mathematical Logic (2nd ed 2015).
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Nov 23 at 20:43










  • It's very nice, but it uses a bit different convention from the one we use. Does mine still count, though? :)
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 20:49












  • @LeylaAlkan Perhaps I'm just confused by your conventions (I assume $vec a$ is a global variable assignment?), but what you've written does not seem to make sense. For instance, $vec a$ satisfying $exists x forall y varphi$ does not imply $vec a$ satisfies $phi.$ It holds for some $x$ (and any $y$) so you need to change the variable assignment to assign the appropriate value to $x.$
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    Nov 23 at 21:15












  • See my edit where I explain why I did it this way @spaceisdarkgreen
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 21:19










  • @LeylaAlkan That's Mendelson, I assume? I don't see any resemblance between what's written in $2$ and what you wrote. (You're going to have to use the rule for quantifiers at some point...)
    – spaceisdarkgreen
    Nov 23 at 21:20


















You can see Example 1.9.3, page 37 of Christopher Leary & Lars Kristiansen, A Friendly Introduction to Mathematical Logic (2nd ed 2015).
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Nov 23 at 20:43




You can see Example 1.9.3, page 37 of Christopher Leary & Lars Kristiansen, A Friendly Introduction to Mathematical Logic (2nd ed 2015).
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Nov 23 at 20:43












It's very nice, but it uses a bit different convention from the one we use. Does mine still count, though? :)
– Leyla Alkan
Nov 23 at 20:49






It's very nice, but it uses a bit different convention from the one we use. Does mine still count, though? :)
– Leyla Alkan
Nov 23 at 20:49














@LeylaAlkan Perhaps I'm just confused by your conventions (I assume $vec a$ is a global variable assignment?), but what you've written does not seem to make sense. For instance, $vec a$ satisfying $exists x forall y varphi$ does not imply $vec a$ satisfies $phi.$ It holds for some $x$ (and any $y$) so you need to change the variable assignment to assign the appropriate value to $x.$
– spaceisdarkgreen
Nov 23 at 21:15






@LeylaAlkan Perhaps I'm just confused by your conventions (I assume $vec a$ is a global variable assignment?), but what you've written does not seem to make sense. For instance, $vec a$ satisfying $exists x forall y varphi$ does not imply $vec a$ satisfies $phi.$ It holds for some $x$ (and any $y$) so you need to change the variable assignment to assign the appropriate value to $x.$
– spaceisdarkgreen
Nov 23 at 21:15














See my edit where I explain why I did it this way @spaceisdarkgreen
– Leyla Alkan
Nov 23 at 21:19




See my edit where I explain why I did it this way @spaceisdarkgreen
– Leyla Alkan
Nov 23 at 21:19












@LeylaAlkan That's Mendelson, I assume? I don't see any resemblance between what's written in $2$ and what you wrote. (You're going to have to use the rule for quantifiers at some point...)
– spaceisdarkgreen
Nov 23 at 21:20






@LeylaAlkan That's Mendelson, I assume? I don't see any resemblance between what's written in $2$ and what you wrote. (You're going to have to use the rule for quantifiers at some point...)
– spaceisdarkgreen
Nov 23 at 21:20












1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
2
down vote



accepted










You're forgetting to use from item 4 the part that says the sequence differs in at most the $i$th component.



For instance, say you have a sequence $a$ satisfying a formula $psi = exists xforall y(varphi)$. Mendelson uses only the universal quantifier, then, actually, the above rendering of $psi$ is only syntactic sugar for $neg forall x(negforall y(varphi))$.



For a sequence $a$ to satisfy $psi$, it means that, by item 2, $a$ does not satisfy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$.



For $a$ to not satifsy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$, by item 4, it means that there is at least one sequence $a'$ differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th component (in wich $i$ is the index of the variable $x$) not satisfying $negforall y(varphi)$.





As for your edit, what you can get is actually




  1. A sequence $a'$ differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th position ($i$ being the index of $x$) satisfying $forall y (varphi)$.

  2. A sequence $a''$ differing from $a$ in at most the $j$th position ($j$ being the index of $y$) satisfying $forall x(negvarphi)$.


for $x$ and $y$ can be different variables.



To obtain a contradiction from this you can use item 4 (from Mendelson) to obtain another sequence, say $a'''$, differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th and $j$th position that will work for both 1. and 2. above.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • But the equivalent of $psi = (exists x)(forall y)varphi$ is $neg (forall x)(exists y)(neg varphi)$
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 22:23










  • @NoahSchweber Can you please check my edit? I think I cannot use the same $vec a'$ , but don't know how else to get a contradiction
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 24 at 11:35










  • @LeylaAlkan , sorry, my bad. Changed the order of quantifier and negation. Fixed.
    – Tarc
    Nov 24 at 15:52










  • I changed my edit according to your way, can you again check it to see if it's okay now? @Tarc
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 25 at 14:57










  • Yes, I think that will work, @LeylaAlkan. Maybe you can add that $a'''$ can be obtained from $a'$ by assigning to its $j$th position the value $a''(j)$, or, equivalently, from $a''$ by assigning to its $i$th position the value $a'(i)$.
    – Tarc
    Nov 25 at 20:35











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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
2
down vote



accepted










You're forgetting to use from item 4 the part that says the sequence differs in at most the $i$th component.



For instance, say you have a sequence $a$ satisfying a formula $psi = exists xforall y(varphi)$. Mendelson uses only the universal quantifier, then, actually, the above rendering of $psi$ is only syntactic sugar for $neg forall x(negforall y(varphi))$.



For a sequence $a$ to satisfy $psi$, it means that, by item 2, $a$ does not satisfy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$.



For $a$ to not satifsy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$, by item 4, it means that there is at least one sequence $a'$ differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th component (in wich $i$ is the index of the variable $x$) not satisfying $negforall y(varphi)$.





As for your edit, what you can get is actually




  1. A sequence $a'$ differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th position ($i$ being the index of $x$) satisfying $forall y (varphi)$.

  2. A sequence $a''$ differing from $a$ in at most the $j$th position ($j$ being the index of $y$) satisfying $forall x(negvarphi)$.


for $x$ and $y$ can be different variables.



To obtain a contradiction from this you can use item 4 (from Mendelson) to obtain another sequence, say $a'''$, differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th and $j$th position that will work for both 1. and 2. above.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • But the equivalent of $psi = (exists x)(forall y)varphi$ is $neg (forall x)(exists y)(neg varphi)$
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 22:23










  • @NoahSchweber Can you please check my edit? I think I cannot use the same $vec a'$ , but don't know how else to get a contradiction
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 24 at 11:35










  • @LeylaAlkan , sorry, my bad. Changed the order of quantifier and negation. Fixed.
    – Tarc
    Nov 24 at 15:52










  • I changed my edit according to your way, can you again check it to see if it's okay now? @Tarc
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 25 at 14:57










  • Yes, I think that will work, @LeylaAlkan. Maybe you can add that $a'''$ can be obtained from $a'$ by assigning to its $j$th position the value $a''(j)$, or, equivalently, from $a''$ by assigning to its $i$th position the value $a'(i)$.
    – Tarc
    Nov 25 at 20:35















up vote
2
down vote



accepted










You're forgetting to use from item 4 the part that says the sequence differs in at most the $i$th component.



For instance, say you have a sequence $a$ satisfying a formula $psi = exists xforall y(varphi)$. Mendelson uses only the universal quantifier, then, actually, the above rendering of $psi$ is only syntactic sugar for $neg forall x(negforall y(varphi))$.



For a sequence $a$ to satisfy $psi$, it means that, by item 2, $a$ does not satisfy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$.



For $a$ to not satifsy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$, by item 4, it means that there is at least one sequence $a'$ differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th component (in wich $i$ is the index of the variable $x$) not satisfying $negforall y(varphi)$.





As for your edit, what you can get is actually




  1. A sequence $a'$ differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th position ($i$ being the index of $x$) satisfying $forall y (varphi)$.

  2. A sequence $a''$ differing from $a$ in at most the $j$th position ($j$ being the index of $y$) satisfying $forall x(negvarphi)$.


for $x$ and $y$ can be different variables.



To obtain a contradiction from this you can use item 4 (from Mendelson) to obtain another sequence, say $a'''$, differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th and $j$th position that will work for both 1. and 2. above.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • But the equivalent of $psi = (exists x)(forall y)varphi$ is $neg (forall x)(exists y)(neg varphi)$
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 22:23










  • @NoahSchweber Can you please check my edit? I think I cannot use the same $vec a'$ , but don't know how else to get a contradiction
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 24 at 11:35










  • @LeylaAlkan , sorry, my bad. Changed the order of quantifier and negation. Fixed.
    – Tarc
    Nov 24 at 15:52










  • I changed my edit according to your way, can you again check it to see if it's okay now? @Tarc
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 25 at 14:57










  • Yes, I think that will work, @LeylaAlkan. Maybe you can add that $a'''$ can be obtained from $a'$ by assigning to its $j$th position the value $a''(j)$, or, equivalently, from $a''$ by assigning to its $i$th position the value $a'(i)$.
    – Tarc
    Nov 25 at 20:35













up vote
2
down vote



accepted







up vote
2
down vote



accepted






You're forgetting to use from item 4 the part that says the sequence differs in at most the $i$th component.



For instance, say you have a sequence $a$ satisfying a formula $psi = exists xforall y(varphi)$. Mendelson uses only the universal quantifier, then, actually, the above rendering of $psi$ is only syntactic sugar for $neg forall x(negforall y(varphi))$.



For a sequence $a$ to satisfy $psi$, it means that, by item 2, $a$ does not satisfy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$.



For $a$ to not satifsy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$, by item 4, it means that there is at least one sequence $a'$ differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th component (in wich $i$ is the index of the variable $x$) not satisfying $negforall y(varphi)$.





As for your edit, what you can get is actually




  1. A sequence $a'$ differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th position ($i$ being the index of $x$) satisfying $forall y (varphi)$.

  2. A sequence $a''$ differing from $a$ in at most the $j$th position ($j$ being the index of $y$) satisfying $forall x(negvarphi)$.


for $x$ and $y$ can be different variables.



To obtain a contradiction from this you can use item 4 (from Mendelson) to obtain another sequence, say $a'''$, differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th and $j$th position that will work for both 1. and 2. above.






share|cite|improve this answer














You're forgetting to use from item 4 the part that says the sequence differs in at most the $i$th component.



For instance, say you have a sequence $a$ satisfying a formula $psi = exists xforall y(varphi)$. Mendelson uses only the universal quantifier, then, actually, the above rendering of $psi$ is only syntactic sugar for $neg forall x(negforall y(varphi))$.



For a sequence $a$ to satisfy $psi$, it means that, by item 2, $a$ does not satisfy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$.



For $a$ to not satifsy $forall x(negforall y(varphi))$, by item 4, it means that there is at least one sequence $a'$ differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th component (in wich $i$ is the index of the variable $x$) not satisfying $negforall y(varphi)$.





As for your edit, what you can get is actually




  1. A sequence $a'$ differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th position ($i$ being the index of $x$) satisfying $forall y (varphi)$.

  2. A sequence $a''$ differing from $a$ in at most the $j$th position ($j$ being the index of $y$) satisfying $forall x(negvarphi)$.


for $x$ and $y$ can be different variables.



To obtain a contradiction from this you can use item 4 (from Mendelson) to obtain another sequence, say $a'''$, differing from $a$ in at most the $i$th and $j$th position that will work for both 1. and 2. above.







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edited Nov 24 at 17:17

























answered Nov 23 at 21:56









Tarc

339411




339411












  • But the equivalent of $psi = (exists x)(forall y)varphi$ is $neg (forall x)(exists y)(neg varphi)$
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 22:23










  • @NoahSchweber Can you please check my edit? I think I cannot use the same $vec a'$ , but don't know how else to get a contradiction
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 24 at 11:35










  • @LeylaAlkan , sorry, my bad. Changed the order of quantifier and negation. Fixed.
    – Tarc
    Nov 24 at 15:52










  • I changed my edit according to your way, can you again check it to see if it's okay now? @Tarc
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 25 at 14:57










  • Yes, I think that will work, @LeylaAlkan. Maybe you can add that $a'''$ can be obtained from $a'$ by assigning to its $j$th position the value $a''(j)$, or, equivalently, from $a''$ by assigning to its $i$th position the value $a'(i)$.
    – Tarc
    Nov 25 at 20:35


















  • But the equivalent of $psi = (exists x)(forall y)varphi$ is $neg (forall x)(exists y)(neg varphi)$
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 23 at 22:23










  • @NoahSchweber Can you please check my edit? I think I cannot use the same $vec a'$ , but don't know how else to get a contradiction
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 24 at 11:35










  • @LeylaAlkan , sorry, my bad. Changed the order of quantifier and negation. Fixed.
    – Tarc
    Nov 24 at 15:52










  • I changed my edit according to your way, can you again check it to see if it's okay now? @Tarc
    – Leyla Alkan
    Nov 25 at 14:57










  • Yes, I think that will work, @LeylaAlkan. Maybe you can add that $a'''$ can be obtained from $a'$ by assigning to its $j$th position the value $a''(j)$, or, equivalently, from $a''$ by assigning to its $i$th position the value $a'(i)$.
    – Tarc
    Nov 25 at 20:35
















But the equivalent of $psi = (exists x)(forall y)varphi$ is $neg (forall x)(exists y)(neg varphi)$
– Leyla Alkan
Nov 23 at 22:23




But the equivalent of $psi = (exists x)(forall y)varphi$ is $neg (forall x)(exists y)(neg varphi)$
– Leyla Alkan
Nov 23 at 22:23












@NoahSchweber Can you please check my edit? I think I cannot use the same $vec a'$ , but don't know how else to get a contradiction
– Leyla Alkan
Nov 24 at 11:35




@NoahSchweber Can you please check my edit? I think I cannot use the same $vec a'$ , but don't know how else to get a contradiction
– Leyla Alkan
Nov 24 at 11:35












@LeylaAlkan , sorry, my bad. Changed the order of quantifier and negation. Fixed.
– Tarc
Nov 24 at 15:52




@LeylaAlkan , sorry, my bad. Changed the order of quantifier and negation. Fixed.
– Tarc
Nov 24 at 15:52












I changed my edit according to your way, can you again check it to see if it's okay now? @Tarc
– Leyla Alkan
Nov 25 at 14:57




I changed my edit according to your way, can you again check it to see if it's okay now? @Tarc
– Leyla Alkan
Nov 25 at 14:57












Yes, I think that will work, @LeylaAlkan. Maybe you can add that $a'''$ can be obtained from $a'$ by assigning to its $j$th position the value $a''(j)$, or, equivalently, from $a''$ by assigning to its $i$th position the value $a'(i)$.
– Tarc
Nov 25 at 20:35




Yes, I think that will work, @LeylaAlkan. Maybe you can add that $a'''$ can be obtained from $a'$ by assigning to its $j$th position the value $a''(j)$, or, equivalently, from $a''$ by assigning to its $i$th position the value $a'(i)$.
– Tarc
Nov 25 at 20:35


















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