Help with a proof by induction on polynomial roots
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I am currently studying induction. I understand the how the principle is supposed to work, I can follow and understand a proof by induction quite fine (the ones I've seen anyway), but actually using it to prove a statement is a bit more difficult. I have this excercise:
Let $a$ and $b$ be roots of the equation $x^2-x-1=0$. Prove that for every $n in N$ the number $a^n+b^n$ is an integer.
I need some help from the beginning: How do I set up the proof? Does knowing that $a$ and $b$ are roots of $x^2-x-1=0$ help me in any way? If so how? How do I know if a and b are integers? Of course the sum of the integer powers of two integers would still be an integer, but I'm not told what they are, and roots of a quadratic equation can also be not integers.
How would I prove a basis step? Should I solve the equation twice, once assuming $a=1$ and once $b=1$, and then sum the result?
discrete-mathematics proof-writing induction proof-explanation
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show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I am currently studying induction. I understand the how the principle is supposed to work, I can follow and understand a proof by induction quite fine (the ones I've seen anyway), but actually using it to prove a statement is a bit more difficult. I have this excercise:
Let $a$ and $b$ be roots of the equation $x^2-x-1=0$. Prove that for every $n in N$ the number $a^n+b^n$ is an integer.
I need some help from the beginning: How do I set up the proof? Does knowing that $a$ and $b$ are roots of $x^2-x-1=0$ help me in any way? If so how? How do I know if a and b are integers? Of course the sum of the integer powers of two integers would still be an integer, but I'm not told what they are, and roots of a quadratic equation can also be not integers.
How would I prove a basis step? Should I solve the equation twice, once assuming $a=1$ and once $b=1$, and then sum the result?
discrete-mathematics proof-writing induction proof-explanation
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What information do you have on $a$ and $b$, knowing that they are roots of the given polynomial?
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– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:08
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You have not read the question carefully yet. You can't "assume" $a$ and $b$ to $1$ or to anything else. They are the roots of that quadratic equation. Hint: use the quadratic formula to find $a$ and $b$ and then calculate the first few values of $a^n _ b^n$.
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– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:09
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@EthanBolker I wouldn't recommend actually computing $a$ and $b$. Just notice simething special about $ab$ and $a+b$
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– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:10
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@Federico Looking at those first few powers is the first thing to try if you have no particular insight. If that turns out unhelpful, then look for something more subtle. A beginner wouldn't "notice something special" right away.
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– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:12
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@EthanBolker Yes but the roots might be quite ugly to compute and the time is totally wasted. You just end with a few computed integers and no insight whatsoever, in my opinion
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– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:14
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I am currently studying induction. I understand the how the principle is supposed to work, I can follow and understand a proof by induction quite fine (the ones I've seen anyway), but actually using it to prove a statement is a bit more difficult. I have this excercise:
Let $a$ and $b$ be roots of the equation $x^2-x-1=0$. Prove that for every $n in N$ the number $a^n+b^n$ is an integer.
I need some help from the beginning: How do I set up the proof? Does knowing that $a$ and $b$ are roots of $x^2-x-1=0$ help me in any way? If so how? How do I know if a and b are integers? Of course the sum of the integer powers of two integers would still be an integer, but I'm not told what they are, and roots of a quadratic equation can also be not integers.
How would I prove a basis step? Should I solve the equation twice, once assuming $a=1$ and once $b=1$, and then sum the result?
discrete-mathematics proof-writing induction proof-explanation
$endgroup$
I am currently studying induction. I understand the how the principle is supposed to work, I can follow and understand a proof by induction quite fine (the ones I've seen anyway), but actually using it to prove a statement is a bit more difficult. I have this excercise:
Let $a$ and $b$ be roots of the equation $x^2-x-1=0$. Prove that for every $n in N$ the number $a^n+b^n$ is an integer.
I need some help from the beginning: How do I set up the proof? Does knowing that $a$ and $b$ are roots of $x^2-x-1=0$ help me in any way? If so how? How do I know if a and b are integers? Of course the sum of the integer powers of two integers would still be an integer, but I'm not told what they are, and roots of a quadratic equation can also be not integers.
How would I prove a basis step? Should I solve the equation twice, once assuming $a=1$ and once $b=1$, and then sum the result?
discrete-mathematics proof-writing induction proof-explanation
discrete-mathematics proof-writing induction proof-explanation
edited Dec 5 '18 at 16:08
Paul
asked Dec 5 '18 at 16:04
PaulPaul
1566
1566
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What information do you have on $a$ and $b$, knowing that they are roots of the given polynomial?
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– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:08
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You have not read the question carefully yet. You can't "assume" $a$ and $b$ to $1$ or to anything else. They are the roots of that quadratic equation. Hint: use the quadratic formula to find $a$ and $b$ and then calculate the first few values of $a^n _ b^n$.
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:09
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@EthanBolker I wouldn't recommend actually computing $a$ and $b$. Just notice simething special about $ab$ and $a+b$
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:10
$begingroup$
@Federico Looking at those first few powers is the first thing to try if you have no particular insight. If that turns out unhelpful, then look for something more subtle. A beginner wouldn't "notice something special" right away.
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:12
$begingroup$
@EthanBolker Yes but the roots might be quite ugly to compute and the time is totally wasted. You just end with a few computed integers and no insight whatsoever, in my opinion
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:14
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
What information do you have on $a$ and $b$, knowing that they are roots of the given polynomial?
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:08
$begingroup$
You have not read the question carefully yet. You can't "assume" $a$ and $b$ to $1$ or to anything else. They are the roots of that quadratic equation. Hint: use the quadratic formula to find $a$ and $b$ and then calculate the first few values of $a^n _ b^n$.
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:09
$begingroup$
@EthanBolker I wouldn't recommend actually computing $a$ and $b$. Just notice simething special about $ab$ and $a+b$
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:10
$begingroup$
@Federico Looking at those first few powers is the first thing to try if you have no particular insight. If that turns out unhelpful, then look for something more subtle. A beginner wouldn't "notice something special" right away.
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:12
$begingroup$
@EthanBolker Yes but the roots might be quite ugly to compute and the time is totally wasted. You just end with a few computed integers and no insight whatsoever, in my opinion
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:14
$begingroup$
What information do you have on $a$ and $b$, knowing that they are roots of the given polynomial?
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:08
$begingroup$
What information do you have on $a$ and $b$, knowing that they are roots of the given polynomial?
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:08
$begingroup$
You have not read the question carefully yet. You can't "assume" $a$ and $b$ to $1$ or to anything else. They are the roots of that quadratic equation. Hint: use the quadratic formula to find $a$ and $b$ and then calculate the first few values of $a^n _ b^n$.
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:09
$begingroup$
You have not read the question carefully yet. You can't "assume" $a$ and $b$ to $1$ or to anything else. They are the roots of that quadratic equation. Hint: use the quadratic formula to find $a$ and $b$ and then calculate the first few values of $a^n _ b^n$.
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:09
$begingroup$
@EthanBolker I wouldn't recommend actually computing $a$ and $b$. Just notice simething special about $ab$ and $a+b$
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:10
$begingroup$
@EthanBolker I wouldn't recommend actually computing $a$ and $b$. Just notice simething special about $ab$ and $a+b$
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:10
$begingroup$
@Federico Looking at those first few powers is the first thing to try if you have no particular insight. If that turns out unhelpful, then look for something more subtle. A beginner wouldn't "notice something special" right away.
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:12
$begingroup$
@Federico Looking at those first few powers is the first thing to try if you have no particular insight. If that turns out unhelpful, then look for something more subtle. A beginner wouldn't "notice something special" right away.
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:12
$begingroup$
@EthanBolker Yes but the roots might be quite ugly to compute and the time is totally wasted. You just end with a few computed integers and no insight whatsoever, in my opinion
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:14
$begingroup$
@EthanBolker Yes but the roots might be quite ugly to compute and the time is totally wasted. You just end with a few computed integers and no insight whatsoever, in my opinion
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:14
|
show 1 more comment
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
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There is a somewhat thorough confusion you seem to be going through. Let me ease your malaise.
See, in order to "prove by induction" a statement concerning a property of something indexed by the natural numbers :
Formulate the statement you want to prove : that is, to each natural number, associate a statement you want to prove.
Prove the statement corresponding to the natural number $1$.
Prove the statement corresponding to the natural number $n$, assuming that the statements corresponding to $n-1$ is true.
It is that simple. Or is it?
Step one : the statement is sometimes given to us. Thus, we may associate to the natural number $n$, the statement : "$a^n+b^n$ is an integer, where $a,b$ are the roots of the equation $x^2-x-1 = 0$".
Remarks :
$a,b$ are fixed, and given to be the roots of a quadratic equation.
As pointed out, $a,b$ need not be integers (and are not in this case!), but then, $0.5 + 1.5 = 2$ is an integer even though $0.5$ and $1.5$ are not. So, for the sum of two numbers to be an integer they themselves don't need to be integers.
Unfortunately, the above "assignment of statements" doesn't quite work out : a teeny weeny little issue crops up at the end. I'll have to explain why.
Step two : Prove the statement corresponding to $n = 1$.
This is : $a+b$ is an integer.
Ok, so here we need to pull out our knowledge about equations. Since the roots of $x^2-x-1$ are $a,b$, the unique quadratic polynomial with roots $a,b$ is $(x-a)(x-b)$. Thus, $(x-a)(x-b) = x^2-x-1$.
Expanding, $x^2 - (a+b)x + ab = x^2-x-1$. Since two polynomials are equal if and only if all their coefficients : equating the coefficients of $x$ gives us $a+b = 1$, which is an integer.
Thus, the statement corresponding to $n=1$ is proved.
We note a little more : comparing the constants, $ab = -1$.
Step two : For the general case, we need to use somehow that $a^{k} + b^{k}$ is an integer(for $k < n$), to show that $a^n+b^n$ is an integer.
Now, let us recall what you mentioned : the product of two integers is an integer, the sum of two integers is an integer. Suppose I could obtain $a^n + b^n$ as a sum / product or such a combination of smaller $a^k+b^k$, then I would be done by the observation in the previous paragraph.
A little bit of playing around gives the brilliant :
$$
a^n+b^n = (a+b)(a^{n+1} + b^{n+1}) - ab(a^{n-2} + b^{n-2})
$$
since we know that $ab = -1$, this gives that $a^n+b^n = (a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) + (a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$. The sum of two integers is an integer , job done, induction complete.
So, for proving the statement pertaining to $n$, we needed the statements pertaining to $n-1$ and $n-2$. Sometimes, more statements may be required, sometimes less.
Ok, so where was the issue above?
The issue is this : for $n=2$, the induction is not true. Because, we have secretly used the fact that $a^0+b^0 = 2$ is an integer while using the identity in the magic step, if we put $n = 2$ in it. This was not part of the induction at all : it is an independent observation. So, one must be careful while performing the inductive step : using more "previous steps" in induction will require more observations like the above from us, however trivial they may be.
Essentially, $n=2$ should be included in the "base case" as an independent observation.
ASIDE : Let $x_k = a^k+b^k$ be the sequence we were asked to show as integers above. The analysis above shows that $x_1 = 1$,$x_2 = 3$ , and $x_{k+2} = x_{k+1} + x_k$. Can you identify some sort of Fibonacci-type sequence here? Read up on Lucas sequences here : and check if they have something to do with sums of nth powers of the roots of some quadratic equation.
EDIT : The relation causing much angst is
$$
a^n+b^n =(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) - ab(a^{n+2}+b^{n-2})
$$
See, always remember the golden rule : two polynomials (in many variables) are equal if and only if the coefficients of every monomial present in either side are equal.
This golden rule we plan to use.
Now, remember what I said earlier : we want to write $a^n+b^n$ as a sum/product or a combination of terms consisting of $a^k + b^k$ with $k<n$, so that we can proclaim that the sum/product of integers is an integer.
Thus, we should start with , say how to "reach" $a^n+b^n$ from $a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}$. This is the term out of those we know as being integral, which seems closest to $a^n+b^n$.
We are at step :
$$
a^n+b^n = ????(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})????
$$
Where I have indicated that the right hand side is unknown, but involves $a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}$.
How do we reach? Use the golden rule : since we have an $a^n$ on the LHS(left hand side), we need one on the RHS(right hand side). How do we get this? Simple : multiply $a^{n-1}$ by $a$ to get $a^n$. Ok.
But then, the $b^{n-1}$ also gets multiplied by $a$. So we also land up with an extra $b^{n-1}a$ on the right hand side, if we multiply by $a$.
We are now at:
$$
a^{n}+b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + ???? = a^n + ab^{n-1} + ???
$$
Do the same thing with $b^n$ : we need $b^n$ on the right hand side, so multiply $b^{n-1}$ with $b$ to get $b^n$. However, since $a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}$ needs to come together while multiplying, we need to keep in mind that $b a^{n-1}$ will also appear.
Now we are at:
$$
a^{n} + b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + b(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) + ?????
$$
Now, we look, and realize that every term on the left has the correct degree. Therefore, ???? should consist of terms being cancelled out, so that all other coefficients, such as $ab^{n-1}$ and $ba^{n-1}$, are zero, because these terms don't appear on the left hand side.
In essence, we have:
$$
a^n+b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + b(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) - ba^{n-1} - ab^{n-1}
$$
Now, thankfully, things fall into position. Thankfully, one gleefully collects terms , and realizes that $ba^{n-1} + ab^{n-1} = ab(a^{n-2} + b^{n-2})$. Putting things together :
$$
a^n+b^n = (a+b)(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) - ab(b^{n-2} + a^{n-2})
$$
Note how thankful I am. If things did not work out via the golden rule, then I would have to use some other way to figure things out.
In general, polynomial identities like this are the stuff of gods. Granted that one can use the "golden rule" to some effect, but identities like this:
$$
(a^2+b^2)(c^2+d^2) = (ac+bd)^2 + (ad-bc)^2
$$
involve "completing the square", another technique which is popular. You will see more of these identities as you go along, but the subject is so varied that you will see a different way of deriving each one.
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What properties did you use to from $a^n+b^n$ to $(a+b)(a^{n+1}+b^{n+1})−ab(a^{n−2}+b^{n−2})$? I was trying to do something similar but I could not do it.
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– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:47
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Not easy, I can give you that. I will edit the answer above for that.
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– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 16:48
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That would be very helpful!
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– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:59
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Edited. You may have a look.
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– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 17:09
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Ohh got it, thank you very much! Outstanding answer :)
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– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:22
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show 3 more comments
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I'll try to point you in the right direction here.
For the base case, we need to show $a+b$ is an integer. Use the factorization $x^2-x-1=(x-a)(x-b)$
To use induction, we need some way of reducing the problem to a problem of lower degree. Here the relations $a^2=a+1$ and $b^2=b+1$ look promising, because they reduce the exponent involved from $2$ to $1$, so hopefully they can be used to reduce the exponent from $n$ to $n-1$
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add a comment |
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The trick is to construct $a^n+b^n$ from sums of a lower degree.
Then notice that
$$(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2}).$$
But from the Vieta's formulas,
$$a+b=1$$ and $ab=-1$ so that the following recurrence holds:
$$a^n+b^n=a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}+a^{n-2}+b^{n-2}.$$
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Wouldn't $a^n+b^n$ equal $a^{n-1}*a+b^{n-1}*b$ instead of $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})$?
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– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:27
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@Paul: when did I say that ?
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– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:08
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In the first step you went from $a^n+b^n$ to that whole equation, but I did not undestand how
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– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:10
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@Paul: no, I wrote $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$, which is an identity. Read carefully.
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– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:11
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That's what I mean, I do not understand how you trasformed $a^n+b^n$ into that (I'm assuming that $a^n+b^n$ was the starting point)
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– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:12
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show 3 more comments
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Hint: prove by induction that $a^n+b^n$ is a polynomial function of $a+b,,ab$ with integer coefficients. Note both are integers in this case.
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We can derive the recurrence very simply using this method.
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– Bill Dubuque
Dec 5 '18 at 19:13
add a comment |
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Hint: The two roots of that quadratic equation both uphold that $x^2=x+1$. Therefore $x^n=x^{n-2}(x+1)$
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add a comment |
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5 Answers
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active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
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active
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votes
$begingroup$
There is a somewhat thorough confusion you seem to be going through. Let me ease your malaise.
See, in order to "prove by induction" a statement concerning a property of something indexed by the natural numbers :
Formulate the statement you want to prove : that is, to each natural number, associate a statement you want to prove.
Prove the statement corresponding to the natural number $1$.
Prove the statement corresponding to the natural number $n$, assuming that the statements corresponding to $n-1$ is true.
It is that simple. Or is it?
Step one : the statement is sometimes given to us. Thus, we may associate to the natural number $n$, the statement : "$a^n+b^n$ is an integer, where $a,b$ are the roots of the equation $x^2-x-1 = 0$".
Remarks :
$a,b$ are fixed, and given to be the roots of a quadratic equation.
As pointed out, $a,b$ need not be integers (and are not in this case!), but then, $0.5 + 1.5 = 2$ is an integer even though $0.5$ and $1.5$ are not. So, for the sum of two numbers to be an integer they themselves don't need to be integers.
Unfortunately, the above "assignment of statements" doesn't quite work out : a teeny weeny little issue crops up at the end. I'll have to explain why.
Step two : Prove the statement corresponding to $n = 1$.
This is : $a+b$ is an integer.
Ok, so here we need to pull out our knowledge about equations. Since the roots of $x^2-x-1$ are $a,b$, the unique quadratic polynomial with roots $a,b$ is $(x-a)(x-b)$. Thus, $(x-a)(x-b) = x^2-x-1$.
Expanding, $x^2 - (a+b)x + ab = x^2-x-1$. Since two polynomials are equal if and only if all their coefficients : equating the coefficients of $x$ gives us $a+b = 1$, which is an integer.
Thus, the statement corresponding to $n=1$ is proved.
We note a little more : comparing the constants, $ab = -1$.
Step two : For the general case, we need to use somehow that $a^{k} + b^{k}$ is an integer(for $k < n$), to show that $a^n+b^n$ is an integer.
Now, let us recall what you mentioned : the product of two integers is an integer, the sum of two integers is an integer. Suppose I could obtain $a^n + b^n$ as a sum / product or such a combination of smaller $a^k+b^k$, then I would be done by the observation in the previous paragraph.
A little bit of playing around gives the brilliant :
$$
a^n+b^n = (a+b)(a^{n+1} + b^{n+1}) - ab(a^{n-2} + b^{n-2})
$$
since we know that $ab = -1$, this gives that $a^n+b^n = (a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) + (a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$. The sum of two integers is an integer , job done, induction complete.
So, for proving the statement pertaining to $n$, we needed the statements pertaining to $n-1$ and $n-2$. Sometimes, more statements may be required, sometimes less.
Ok, so where was the issue above?
The issue is this : for $n=2$, the induction is not true. Because, we have secretly used the fact that $a^0+b^0 = 2$ is an integer while using the identity in the magic step, if we put $n = 2$ in it. This was not part of the induction at all : it is an independent observation. So, one must be careful while performing the inductive step : using more "previous steps" in induction will require more observations like the above from us, however trivial they may be.
Essentially, $n=2$ should be included in the "base case" as an independent observation.
ASIDE : Let $x_k = a^k+b^k$ be the sequence we were asked to show as integers above. The analysis above shows that $x_1 = 1$,$x_2 = 3$ , and $x_{k+2} = x_{k+1} + x_k$. Can you identify some sort of Fibonacci-type sequence here? Read up on Lucas sequences here : and check if they have something to do with sums of nth powers of the roots of some quadratic equation.
EDIT : The relation causing much angst is
$$
a^n+b^n =(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) - ab(a^{n+2}+b^{n-2})
$$
See, always remember the golden rule : two polynomials (in many variables) are equal if and only if the coefficients of every monomial present in either side are equal.
This golden rule we plan to use.
Now, remember what I said earlier : we want to write $a^n+b^n$ as a sum/product or a combination of terms consisting of $a^k + b^k$ with $k<n$, so that we can proclaim that the sum/product of integers is an integer.
Thus, we should start with , say how to "reach" $a^n+b^n$ from $a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}$. This is the term out of those we know as being integral, which seems closest to $a^n+b^n$.
We are at step :
$$
a^n+b^n = ????(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})????
$$
Where I have indicated that the right hand side is unknown, but involves $a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}$.
How do we reach? Use the golden rule : since we have an $a^n$ on the LHS(left hand side), we need one on the RHS(right hand side). How do we get this? Simple : multiply $a^{n-1}$ by $a$ to get $a^n$. Ok.
But then, the $b^{n-1}$ also gets multiplied by $a$. So we also land up with an extra $b^{n-1}a$ on the right hand side, if we multiply by $a$.
We are now at:
$$
a^{n}+b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + ???? = a^n + ab^{n-1} + ???
$$
Do the same thing with $b^n$ : we need $b^n$ on the right hand side, so multiply $b^{n-1}$ with $b$ to get $b^n$. However, since $a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}$ needs to come together while multiplying, we need to keep in mind that $b a^{n-1}$ will also appear.
Now we are at:
$$
a^{n} + b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + b(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) + ?????
$$
Now, we look, and realize that every term on the left has the correct degree. Therefore, ???? should consist of terms being cancelled out, so that all other coefficients, such as $ab^{n-1}$ and $ba^{n-1}$, are zero, because these terms don't appear on the left hand side.
In essence, we have:
$$
a^n+b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + b(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) - ba^{n-1} - ab^{n-1}
$$
Now, thankfully, things fall into position. Thankfully, one gleefully collects terms , and realizes that $ba^{n-1} + ab^{n-1} = ab(a^{n-2} + b^{n-2})$. Putting things together :
$$
a^n+b^n = (a+b)(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) - ab(b^{n-2} + a^{n-2})
$$
Note how thankful I am. If things did not work out via the golden rule, then I would have to use some other way to figure things out.
In general, polynomial identities like this are the stuff of gods. Granted that one can use the "golden rule" to some effect, but identities like this:
$$
(a^2+b^2)(c^2+d^2) = (ac+bd)^2 + (ad-bc)^2
$$
involve "completing the square", another technique which is popular. You will see more of these identities as you go along, but the subject is so varied that you will see a different way of deriving each one.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
What properties did you use to from $a^n+b^n$ to $(a+b)(a^{n+1}+b^{n+1})−ab(a^{n−2}+b^{n−2})$? I was trying to do something similar but I could not do it.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:47
$begingroup$
Not easy, I can give you that. I will edit the answer above for that.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 16:48
$begingroup$
That would be very helpful!
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:59
$begingroup$
Edited. You may have a look.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 17:09
$begingroup$
Ohh got it, thank you very much! Outstanding answer :)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:22
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
There is a somewhat thorough confusion you seem to be going through. Let me ease your malaise.
See, in order to "prove by induction" a statement concerning a property of something indexed by the natural numbers :
Formulate the statement you want to prove : that is, to each natural number, associate a statement you want to prove.
Prove the statement corresponding to the natural number $1$.
Prove the statement corresponding to the natural number $n$, assuming that the statements corresponding to $n-1$ is true.
It is that simple. Or is it?
Step one : the statement is sometimes given to us. Thus, we may associate to the natural number $n$, the statement : "$a^n+b^n$ is an integer, where $a,b$ are the roots of the equation $x^2-x-1 = 0$".
Remarks :
$a,b$ are fixed, and given to be the roots of a quadratic equation.
As pointed out, $a,b$ need not be integers (and are not in this case!), but then, $0.5 + 1.5 = 2$ is an integer even though $0.5$ and $1.5$ are not. So, for the sum of two numbers to be an integer they themselves don't need to be integers.
Unfortunately, the above "assignment of statements" doesn't quite work out : a teeny weeny little issue crops up at the end. I'll have to explain why.
Step two : Prove the statement corresponding to $n = 1$.
This is : $a+b$ is an integer.
Ok, so here we need to pull out our knowledge about equations. Since the roots of $x^2-x-1$ are $a,b$, the unique quadratic polynomial with roots $a,b$ is $(x-a)(x-b)$. Thus, $(x-a)(x-b) = x^2-x-1$.
Expanding, $x^2 - (a+b)x + ab = x^2-x-1$. Since two polynomials are equal if and only if all their coefficients : equating the coefficients of $x$ gives us $a+b = 1$, which is an integer.
Thus, the statement corresponding to $n=1$ is proved.
We note a little more : comparing the constants, $ab = -1$.
Step two : For the general case, we need to use somehow that $a^{k} + b^{k}$ is an integer(for $k < n$), to show that $a^n+b^n$ is an integer.
Now, let us recall what you mentioned : the product of two integers is an integer, the sum of two integers is an integer. Suppose I could obtain $a^n + b^n$ as a sum / product or such a combination of smaller $a^k+b^k$, then I would be done by the observation in the previous paragraph.
A little bit of playing around gives the brilliant :
$$
a^n+b^n = (a+b)(a^{n+1} + b^{n+1}) - ab(a^{n-2} + b^{n-2})
$$
since we know that $ab = -1$, this gives that $a^n+b^n = (a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) + (a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$. The sum of two integers is an integer , job done, induction complete.
So, for proving the statement pertaining to $n$, we needed the statements pertaining to $n-1$ and $n-2$. Sometimes, more statements may be required, sometimes less.
Ok, so where was the issue above?
The issue is this : for $n=2$, the induction is not true. Because, we have secretly used the fact that $a^0+b^0 = 2$ is an integer while using the identity in the magic step, if we put $n = 2$ in it. This was not part of the induction at all : it is an independent observation. So, one must be careful while performing the inductive step : using more "previous steps" in induction will require more observations like the above from us, however trivial they may be.
Essentially, $n=2$ should be included in the "base case" as an independent observation.
ASIDE : Let $x_k = a^k+b^k$ be the sequence we were asked to show as integers above. The analysis above shows that $x_1 = 1$,$x_2 = 3$ , and $x_{k+2} = x_{k+1} + x_k$. Can you identify some sort of Fibonacci-type sequence here? Read up on Lucas sequences here : and check if they have something to do with sums of nth powers of the roots of some quadratic equation.
EDIT : The relation causing much angst is
$$
a^n+b^n =(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) - ab(a^{n+2}+b^{n-2})
$$
See, always remember the golden rule : two polynomials (in many variables) are equal if and only if the coefficients of every monomial present in either side are equal.
This golden rule we plan to use.
Now, remember what I said earlier : we want to write $a^n+b^n$ as a sum/product or a combination of terms consisting of $a^k + b^k$ with $k<n$, so that we can proclaim that the sum/product of integers is an integer.
Thus, we should start with , say how to "reach" $a^n+b^n$ from $a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}$. This is the term out of those we know as being integral, which seems closest to $a^n+b^n$.
We are at step :
$$
a^n+b^n = ????(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})????
$$
Where I have indicated that the right hand side is unknown, but involves $a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}$.
How do we reach? Use the golden rule : since we have an $a^n$ on the LHS(left hand side), we need one on the RHS(right hand side). How do we get this? Simple : multiply $a^{n-1}$ by $a$ to get $a^n$. Ok.
But then, the $b^{n-1}$ also gets multiplied by $a$. So we also land up with an extra $b^{n-1}a$ on the right hand side, if we multiply by $a$.
We are now at:
$$
a^{n}+b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + ???? = a^n + ab^{n-1} + ???
$$
Do the same thing with $b^n$ : we need $b^n$ on the right hand side, so multiply $b^{n-1}$ with $b$ to get $b^n$. However, since $a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}$ needs to come together while multiplying, we need to keep in mind that $b a^{n-1}$ will also appear.
Now we are at:
$$
a^{n} + b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + b(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) + ?????
$$
Now, we look, and realize that every term on the left has the correct degree. Therefore, ???? should consist of terms being cancelled out, so that all other coefficients, such as $ab^{n-1}$ and $ba^{n-1}$, are zero, because these terms don't appear on the left hand side.
In essence, we have:
$$
a^n+b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + b(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) - ba^{n-1} - ab^{n-1}
$$
Now, thankfully, things fall into position. Thankfully, one gleefully collects terms , and realizes that $ba^{n-1} + ab^{n-1} = ab(a^{n-2} + b^{n-2})$. Putting things together :
$$
a^n+b^n = (a+b)(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) - ab(b^{n-2} + a^{n-2})
$$
Note how thankful I am. If things did not work out via the golden rule, then I would have to use some other way to figure things out.
In general, polynomial identities like this are the stuff of gods. Granted that one can use the "golden rule" to some effect, but identities like this:
$$
(a^2+b^2)(c^2+d^2) = (ac+bd)^2 + (ad-bc)^2
$$
involve "completing the square", another technique which is popular. You will see more of these identities as you go along, but the subject is so varied that you will see a different way of deriving each one.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
What properties did you use to from $a^n+b^n$ to $(a+b)(a^{n+1}+b^{n+1})−ab(a^{n−2}+b^{n−2})$? I was trying to do something similar but I could not do it.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:47
$begingroup$
Not easy, I can give you that. I will edit the answer above for that.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 16:48
$begingroup$
That would be very helpful!
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:59
$begingroup$
Edited. You may have a look.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 17:09
$begingroup$
Ohh got it, thank you very much! Outstanding answer :)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:22
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
There is a somewhat thorough confusion you seem to be going through. Let me ease your malaise.
See, in order to "prove by induction" a statement concerning a property of something indexed by the natural numbers :
Formulate the statement you want to prove : that is, to each natural number, associate a statement you want to prove.
Prove the statement corresponding to the natural number $1$.
Prove the statement corresponding to the natural number $n$, assuming that the statements corresponding to $n-1$ is true.
It is that simple. Or is it?
Step one : the statement is sometimes given to us. Thus, we may associate to the natural number $n$, the statement : "$a^n+b^n$ is an integer, where $a,b$ are the roots of the equation $x^2-x-1 = 0$".
Remarks :
$a,b$ are fixed, and given to be the roots of a quadratic equation.
As pointed out, $a,b$ need not be integers (and are not in this case!), but then, $0.5 + 1.5 = 2$ is an integer even though $0.5$ and $1.5$ are not. So, for the sum of two numbers to be an integer they themselves don't need to be integers.
Unfortunately, the above "assignment of statements" doesn't quite work out : a teeny weeny little issue crops up at the end. I'll have to explain why.
Step two : Prove the statement corresponding to $n = 1$.
This is : $a+b$ is an integer.
Ok, so here we need to pull out our knowledge about equations. Since the roots of $x^2-x-1$ are $a,b$, the unique quadratic polynomial with roots $a,b$ is $(x-a)(x-b)$. Thus, $(x-a)(x-b) = x^2-x-1$.
Expanding, $x^2 - (a+b)x + ab = x^2-x-1$. Since two polynomials are equal if and only if all their coefficients : equating the coefficients of $x$ gives us $a+b = 1$, which is an integer.
Thus, the statement corresponding to $n=1$ is proved.
We note a little more : comparing the constants, $ab = -1$.
Step two : For the general case, we need to use somehow that $a^{k} + b^{k}$ is an integer(for $k < n$), to show that $a^n+b^n$ is an integer.
Now, let us recall what you mentioned : the product of two integers is an integer, the sum of two integers is an integer. Suppose I could obtain $a^n + b^n$ as a sum / product or such a combination of smaller $a^k+b^k$, then I would be done by the observation in the previous paragraph.
A little bit of playing around gives the brilliant :
$$
a^n+b^n = (a+b)(a^{n+1} + b^{n+1}) - ab(a^{n-2} + b^{n-2})
$$
since we know that $ab = -1$, this gives that $a^n+b^n = (a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) + (a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$. The sum of two integers is an integer , job done, induction complete.
So, for proving the statement pertaining to $n$, we needed the statements pertaining to $n-1$ and $n-2$. Sometimes, more statements may be required, sometimes less.
Ok, so where was the issue above?
The issue is this : for $n=2$, the induction is not true. Because, we have secretly used the fact that $a^0+b^0 = 2$ is an integer while using the identity in the magic step, if we put $n = 2$ in it. This was not part of the induction at all : it is an independent observation. So, one must be careful while performing the inductive step : using more "previous steps" in induction will require more observations like the above from us, however trivial they may be.
Essentially, $n=2$ should be included in the "base case" as an independent observation.
ASIDE : Let $x_k = a^k+b^k$ be the sequence we were asked to show as integers above. The analysis above shows that $x_1 = 1$,$x_2 = 3$ , and $x_{k+2} = x_{k+1} + x_k$. Can you identify some sort of Fibonacci-type sequence here? Read up on Lucas sequences here : and check if they have something to do with sums of nth powers of the roots of some quadratic equation.
EDIT : The relation causing much angst is
$$
a^n+b^n =(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) - ab(a^{n+2}+b^{n-2})
$$
See, always remember the golden rule : two polynomials (in many variables) are equal if and only if the coefficients of every monomial present in either side are equal.
This golden rule we plan to use.
Now, remember what I said earlier : we want to write $a^n+b^n$ as a sum/product or a combination of terms consisting of $a^k + b^k$ with $k<n$, so that we can proclaim that the sum/product of integers is an integer.
Thus, we should start with , say how to "reach" $a^n+b^n$ from $a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}$. This is the term out of those we know as being integral, which seems closest to $a^n+b^n$.
We are at step :
$$
a^n+b^n = ????(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})????
$$
Where I have indicated that the right hand side is unknown, but involves $a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}$.
How do we reach? Use the golden rule : since we have an $a^n$ on the LHS(left hand side), we need one on the RHS(right hand side). How do we get this? Simple : multiply $a^{n-1}$ by $a$ to get $a^n$. Ok.
But then, the $b^{n-1}$ also gets multiplied by $a$. So we also land up with an extra $b^{n-1}a$ on the right hand side, if we multiply by $a$.
We are now at:
$$
a^{n}+b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + ???? = a^n + ab^{n-1} + ???
$$
Do the same thing with $b^n$ : we need $b^n$ on the right hand side, so multiply $b^{n-1}$ with $b$ to get $b^n$. However, since $a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}$ needs to come together while multiplying, we need to keep in mind that $b a^{n-1}$ will also appear.
Now we are at:
$$
a^{n} + b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + b(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) + ?????
$$
Now, we look, and realize that every term on the left has the correct degree. Therefore, ???? should consist of terms being cancelled out, so that all other coefficients, such as $ab^{n-1}$ and $ba^{n-1}$, are zero, because these terms don't appear on the left hand side.
In essence, we have:
$$
a^n+b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + b(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) - ba^{n-1} - ab^{n-1}
$$
Now, thankfully, things fall into position. Thankfully, one gleefully collects terms , and realizes that $ba^{n-1} + ab^{n-1} = ab(a^{n-2} + b^{n-2})$. Putting things together :
$$
a^n+b^n = (a+b)(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) - ab(b^{n-2} + a^{n-2})
$$
Note how thankful I am. If things did not work out via the golden rule, then I would have to use some other way to figure things out.
In general, polynomial identities like this are the stuff of gods. Granted that one can use the "golden rule" to some effect, but identities like this:
$$
(a^2+b^2)(c^2+d^2) = (ac+bd)^2 + (ad-bc)^2
$$
involve "completing the square", another technique which is popular. You will see more of these identities as you go along, but the subject is so varied that you will see a different way of deriving each one.
$endgroup$
There is a somewhat thorough confusion you seem to be going through. Let me ease your malaise.
See, in order to "prove by induction" a statement concerning a property of something indexed by the natural numbers :
Formulate the statement you want to prove : that is, to each natural number, associate a statement you want to prove.
Prove the statement corresponding to the natural number $1$.
Prove the statement corresponding to the natural number $n$, assuming that the statements corresponding to $n-1$ is true.
It is that simple. Or is it?
Step one : the statement is sometimes given to us. Thus, we may associate to the natural number $n$, the statement : "$a^n+b^n$ is an integer, where $a,b$ are the roots of the equation $x^2-x-1 = 0$".
Remarks :
$a,b$ are fixed, and given to be the roots of a quadratic equation.
As pointed out, $a,b$ need not be integers (and are not in this case!), but then, $0.5 + 1.5 = 2$ is an integer even though $0.5$ and $1.5$ are not. So, for the sum of two numbers to be an integer they themselves don't need to be integers.
Unfortunately, the above "assignment of statements" doesn't quite work out : a teeny weeny little issue crops up at the end. I'll have to explain why.
Step two : Prove the statement corresponding to $n = 1$.
This is : $a+b$ is an integer.
Ok, so here we need to pull out our knowledge about equations. Since the roots of $x^2-x-1$ are $a,b$, the unique quadratic polynomial with roots $a,b$ is $(x-a)(x-b)$. Thus, $(x-a)(x-b) = x^2-x-1$.
Expanding, $x^2 - (a+b)x + ab = x^2-x-1$. Since two polynomials are equal if and only if all their coefficients : equating the coefficients of $x$ gives us $a+b = 1$, which is an integer.
Thus, the statement corresponding to $n=1$ is proved.
We note a little more : comparing the constants, $ab = -1$.
Step two : For the general case, we need to use somehow that $a^{k} + b^{k}$ is an integer(for $k < n$), to show that $a^n+b^n$ is an integer.
Now, let us recall what you mentioned : the product of two integers is an integer, the sum of two integers is an integer. Suppose I could obtain $a^n + b^n$ as a sum / product or such a combination of smaller $a^k+b^k$, then I would be done by the observation in the previous paragraph.
A little bit of playing around gives the brilliant :
$$
a^n+b^n = (a+b)(a^{n+1} + b^{n+1}) - ab(a^{n-2} + b^{n-2})
$$
since we know that $ab = -1$, this gives that $a^n+b^n = (a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) + (a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$. The sum of two integers is an integer , job done, induction complete.
So, for proving the statement pertaining to $n$, we needed the statements pertaining to $n-1$ and $n-2$. Sometimes, more statements may be required, sometimes less.
Ok, so where was the issue above?
The issue is this : for $n=2$, the induction is not true. Because, we have secretly used the fact that $a^0+b^0 = 2$ is an integer while using the identity in the magic step, if we put $n = 2$ in it. This was not part of the induction at all : it is an independent observation. So, one must be careful while performing the inductive step : using more "previous steps" in induction will require more observations like the above from us, however trivial they may be.
Essentially, $n=2$ should be included in the "base case" as an independent observation.
ASIDE : Let $x_k = a^k+b^k$ be the sequence we were asked to show as integers above. The analysis above shows that $x_1 = 1$,$x_2 = 3$ , and $x_{k+2} = x_{k+1} + x_k$. Can you identify some sort of Fibonacci-type sequence here? Read up on Lucas sequences here : and check if they have something to do with sums of nth powers of the roots of some quadratic equation.
EDIT : The relation causing much angst is
$$
a^n+b^n =(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) - ab(a^{n+2}+b^{n-2})
$$
See, always remember the golden rule : two polynomials (in many variables) are equal if and only if the coefficients of every monomial present in either side are equal.
This golden rule we plan to use.
Now, remember what I said earlier : we want to write $a^n+b^n$ as a sum/product or a combination of terms consisting of $a^k + b^k$ with $k<n$, so that we can proclaim that the sum/product of integers is an integer.
Thus, we should start with , say how to "reach" $a^n+b^n$ from $a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}$. This is the term out of those we know as being integral, which seems closest to $a^n+b^n$.
We are at step :
$$
a^n+b^n = ????(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})????
$$
Where I have indicated that the right hand side is unknown, but involves $a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}$.
How do we reach? Use the golden rule : since we have an $a^n$ on the LHS(left hand side), we need one on the RHS(right hand side). How do we get this? Simple : multiply $a^{n-1}$ by $a$ to get $a^n$. Ok.
But then, the $b^{n-1}$ also gets multiplied by $a$. So we also land up with an extra $b^{n-1}a$ on the right hand side, if we multiply by $a$.
We are now at:
$$
a^{n}+b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + ???? = a^n + ab^{n-1} + ???
$$
Do the same thing with $b^n$ : we need $b^n$ on the right hand side, so multiply $b^{n-1}$ with $b$ to get $b^n$. However, since $a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}$ needs to come together while multiplying, we need to keep in mind that $b a^{n-1}$ will also appear.
Now we are at:
$$
a^{n} + b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + b(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}) + ?????
$$
Now, we look, and realize that every term on the left has the correct degree. Therefore, ???? should consist of terms being cancelled out, so that all other coefficients, such as $ab^{n-1}$ and $ba^{n-1}$, are zero, because these terms don't appear on the left hand side.
In essence, we have:
$$
a^n+b^n = a(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) + b(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) - ba^{n-1} - ab^{n-1}
$$
Now, thankfully, things fall into position. Thankfully, one gleefully collects terms , and realizes that $ba^{n-1} + ab^{n-1} = ab(a^{n-2} + b^{n-2})$. Putting things together :
$$
a^n+b^n = (a+b)(a^{n-1} + b^{n-1}) - ab(b^{n-2} + a^{n-2})
$$
Note how thankful I am. If things did not work out via the golden rule, then I would have to use some other way to figure things out.
In general, polynomial identities like this are the stuff of gods. Granted that one can use the "golden rule" to some effect, but identities like this:
$$
(a^2+b^2)(c^2+d^2) = (ac+bd)^2 + (ad-bc)^2
$$
involve "completing the square", another technique which is popular. You will see more of these identities as you go along, but the subject is so varied that you will see a different way of deriving each one.
edited Dec 5 '18 at 17:09
answered Dec 5 '18 at 16:36
астон вілла олоф мэллбэргастон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
38.1k33376
38.1k33376
$begingroup$
What properties did you use to from $a^n+b^n$ to $(a+b)(a^{n+1}+b^{n+1})−ab(a^{n−2}+b^{n−2})$? I was trying to do something similar but I could not do it.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:47
$begingroup$
Not easy, I can give you that. I will edit the answer above for that.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 16:48
$begingroup$
That would be very helpful!
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:59
$begingroup$
Edited. You may have a look.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 17:09
$begingroup$
Ohh got it, thank you very much! Outstanding answer :)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:22
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
What properties did you use to from $a^n+b^n$ to $(a+b)(a^{n+1}+b^{n+1})−ab(a^{n−2}+b^{n−2})$? I was trying to do something similar but I could not do it.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:47
$begingroup$
Not easy, I can give you that. I will edit the answer above for that.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 16:48
$begingroup$
That would be very helpful!
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:59
$begingroup$
Edited. You may have a look.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 17:09
$begingroup$
Ohh got it, thank you very much! Outstanding answer :)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:22
$begingroup$
What properties did you use to from $a^n+b^n$ to $(a+b)(a^{n+1}+b^{n+1})−ab(a^{n−2}+b^{n−2})$? I was trying to do something similar but I could not do it.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:47
$begingroup$
What properties did you use to from $a^n+b^n$ to $(a+b)(a^{n+1}+b^{n+1})−ab(a^{n−2}+b^{n−2})$? I was trying to do something similar but I could not do it.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:47
$begingroup$
Not easy, I can give you that. I will edit the answer above for that.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 16:48
$begingroup$
Not easy, I can give you that. I will edit the answer above for that.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 16:48
$begingroup$
That would be very helpful!
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:59
$begingroup$
That would be very helpful!
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:59
$begingroup$
Edited. You may have a look.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 17:09
$begingroup$
Edited. You may have a look.
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Dec 5 '18 at 17:09
$begingroup$
Ohh got it, thank you very much! Outstanding answer :)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:22
$begingroup$
Ohh got it, thank you very much! Outstanding answer :)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:22
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
I'll try to point you in the right direction here.
For the base case, we need to show $a+b$ is an integer. Use the factorization $x^2-x-1=(x-a)(x-b)$
To use induction, we need some way of reducing the problem to a problem of lower degree. Here the relations $a^2=a+1$ and $b^2=b+1$ look promising, because they reduce the exponent involved from $2$ to $1$, so hopefully they can be used to reduce the exponent from $n$ to $n-1$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'll try to point you in the right direction here.
For the base case, we need to show $a+b$ is an integer. Use the factorization $x^2-x-1=(x-a)(x-b)$
To use induction, we need some way of reducing the problem to a problem of lower degree. Here the relations $a^2=a+1$ and $b^2=b+1$ look promising, because they reduce the exponent involved from $2$ to $1$, so hopefully they can be used to reduce the exponent from $n$ to $n-1$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'll try to point you in the right direction here.
For the base case, we need to show $a+b$ is an integer. Use the factorization $x^2-x-1=(x-a)(x-b)$
To use induction, we need some way of reducing the problem to a problem of lower degree. Here the relations $a^2=a+1$ and $b^2=b+1$ look promising, because they reduce the exponent involved from $2$ to $1$, so hopefully they can be used to reduce the exponent from $n$ to $n-1$
$endgroup$
I'll try to point you in the right direction here.
For the base case, we need to show $a+b$ is an integer. Use the factorization $x^2-x-1=(x-a)(x-b)$
To use induction, we need some way of reducing the problem to a problem of lower degree. Here the relations $a^2=a+1$ and $b^2=b+1$ look promising, because they reduce the exponent involved from $2$ to $1$, so hopefully they can be used to reduce the exponent from $n$ to $n-1$
answered Dec 5 '18 at 16:10
Y. FormanY. Forman
11.5k523
11.5k523
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The trick is to construct $a^n+b^n$ from sums of a lower degree.
Then notice that
$$(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2}).$$
But from the Vieta's formulas,
$$a+b=1$$ and $ab=-1$ so that the following recurrence holds:
$$a^n+b^n=a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}+a^{n-2}+b^{n-2}.$$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Wouldn't $a^n+b^n$ equal $a^{n-1}*a+b^{n-1}*b$ instead of $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})$?
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:27
$begingroup$
@Paul: when did I say that ?
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:08
$begingroup$
In the first step you went from $a^n+b^n$ to that whole equation, but I did not undestand how
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:10
$begingroup$
@Paul: no, I wrote $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$, which is an identity. Read carefully.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:11
$begingroup$
That's what I mean, I do not understand how you trasformed $a^n+b^n$ into that (I'm assuming that $a^n+b^n$ was the starting point)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:12
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
The trick is to construct $a^n+b^n$ from sums of a lower degree.
Then notice that
$$(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2}).$$
But from the Vieta's formulas,
$$a+b=1$$ and $ab=-1$ so that the following recurrence holds:
$$a^n+b^n=a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}+a^{n-2}+b^{n-2}.$$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Wouldn't $a^n+b^n$ equal $a^{n-1}*a+b^{n-1}*b$ instead of $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})$?
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:27
$begingroup$
@Paul: when did I say that ?
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:08
$begingroup$
In the first step you went from $a^n+b^n$ to that whole equation, but I did not undestand how
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:10
$begingroup$
@Paul: no, I wrote $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$, which is an identity. Read carefully.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:11
$begingroup$
That's what I mean, I do not understand how you trasformed $a^n+b^n$ into that (I'm assuming that $a^n+b^n$ was the starting point)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:12
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
The trick is to construct $a^n+b^n$ from sums of a lower degree.
Then notice that
$$(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2}).$$
But from the Vieta's formulas,
$$a+b=1$$ and $ab=-1$ so that the following recurrence holds:
$$a^n+b^n=a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}+a^{n-2}+b^{n-2}.$$
$endgroup$
The trick is to construct $a^n+b^n$ from sums of a lower degree.
Then notice that
$$(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2}).$$
But from the Vieta's formulas,
$$a+b=1$$ and $ab=-1$ so that the following recurrence holds:
$$a^n+b^n=a^{n-1}+b^{n-1}+a^{n-2}+b^{n-2}.$$
answered Dec 5 '18 at 16:14
Yves DaoustYves Daoust
126k672225
126k672225
$begingroup$
Wouldn't $a^n+b^n$ equal $a^{n-1}*a+b^{n-1}*b$ instead of $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})$?
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:27
$begingroup$
@Paul: when did I say that ?
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:08
$begingroup$
In the first step you went from $a^n+b^n$ to that whole equation, but I did not undestand how
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:10
$begingroup$
@Paul: no, I wrote $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$, which is an identity. Read carefully.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:11
$begingroup$
That's what I mean, I do not understand how you trasformed $a^n+b^n$ into that (I'm assuming that $a^n+b^n$ was the starting point)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:12
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
Wouldn't $a^n+b^n$ equal $a^{n-1}*a+b^{n-1}*b$ instead of $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})$?
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:27
$begingroup$
@Paul: when did I say that ?
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:08
$begingroup$
In the first step you went from $a^n+b^n$ to that whole equation, but I did not undestand how
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:10
$begingroup$
@Paul: no, I wrote $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$, which is an identity. Read carefully.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:11
$begingroup$
That's what I mean, I do not understand how you trasformed $a^n+b^n$ into that (I'm assuming that $a^n+b^n$ was the starting point)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:12
$begingroup$
Wouldn't $a^n+b^n$ equal $a^{n-1}*a+b^{n-1}*b$ instead of $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})$?
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:27
$begingroup$
Wouldn't $a^n+b^n$ equal $a^{n-1}*a+b^{n-1}*b$ instead of $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})$?
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 16:27
$begingroup$
@Paul: when did I say that ?
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:08
$begingroup$
@Paul: when did I say that ?
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:08
$begingroup$
In the first step you went from $a^n+b^n$ to that whole equation, but I did not undestand how
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:10
$begingroup$
In the first step you went from $a^n+b^n$ to that whole equation, but I did not undestand how
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:10
$begingroup$
@Paul: no, I wrote $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$, which is an identity. Read carefully.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:11
$begingroup$
@Paul: no, I wrote $(a+b)(a^{n-1}+b^{n-1})=a^n+b^n+ab(a^{n-2}+b^{n-2})$, which is an identity. Read carefully.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Dec 5 '18 at 17:11
$begingroup$
That's what I mean, I do not understand how you trasformed $a^n+b^n$ into that (I'm assuming that $a^n+b^n$ was the starting point)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:12
$begingroup$
That's what I mean, I do not understand how you trasformed $a^n+b^n$ into that (I'm assuming that $a^n+b^n$ was the starting point)
$endgroup$
– Paul
Dec 5 '18 at 17:12
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
Hint: prove by induction that $a^n+b^n$ is a polynomial function of $a+b,,ab$ with integer coefficients. Note both are integers in this case.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
We can derive the recurrence very simply using this method.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Dec 5 '18 at 19:13
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Hint: prove by induction that $a^n+b^n$ is a polynomial function of $a+b,,ab$ with integer coefficients. Note both are integers in this case.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
We can derive the recurrence very simply using this method.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Dec 5 '18 at 19:13
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Hint: prove by induction that $a^n+b^n$ is a polynomial function of $a+b,,ab$ with integer coefficients. Note both are integers in this case.
$endgroup$
Hint: prove by induction that $a^n+b^n$ is a polynomial function of $a+b,,ab$ with integer coefficients. Note both are integers in this case.
answered Dec 5 '18 at 16:07
J.G.J.G.
25.2k22539
25.2k22539
$begingroup$
We can derive the recurrence very simply using this method.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Dec 5 '18 at 19:13
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We can derive the recurrence very simply using this method.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Dec 5 '18 at 19:13
$begingroup$
We can derive the recurrence very simply using this method.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Dec 5 '18 at 19:13
$begingroup$
We can derive the recurrence very simply using this method.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
Dec 5 '18 at 19:13
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Hint: The two roots of that quadratic equation both uphold that $x^2=x+1$. Therefore $x^n=x^{n-2}(x+1)$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Hint: The two roots of that quadratic equation both uphold that $x^2=x+1$. Therefore $x^n=x^{n-2}(x+1)$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Hint: The two roots of that quadratic equation both uphold that $x^2=x+1$. Therefore $x^n=x^{n-2}(x+1)$
$endgroup$
Hint: The two roots of that quadratic equation both uphold that $x^2=x+1$. Therefore $x^n=x^{n-2}(x+1)$
answered Dec 5 '18 at 16:08
MoKo19MoKo19
1914
1914
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
What information do you have on $a$ and $b$, knowing that they are roots of the given polynomial?
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:08
$begingroup$
You have not read the question carefully yet. You can't "assume" $a$ and $b$ to $1$ or to anything else. They are the roots of that quadratic equation. Hint: use the quadratic formula to find $a$ and $b$ and then calculate the first few values of $a^n _ b^n$.
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:09
$begingroup$
@EthanBolker I wouldn't recommend actually computing $a$ and $b$. Just notice simething special about $ab$ and $a+b$
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:10
$begingroup$
@Federico Looking at those first few powers is the first thing to try if you have no particular insight. If that turns out unhelpful, then look for something more subtle. A beginner wouldn't "notice something special" right away.
$endgroup$
– Ethan Bolker
Dec 5 '18 at 16:12
$begingroup$
@EthanBolker Yes but the roots might be quite ugly to compute and the time is totally wasted. You just end with a few computed integers and no insight whatsoever, in my opinion
$endgroup$
– Federico
Dec 5 '18 at 16:14