If at each point of a closed interval the $m$-th derivative of $f$ is $0$ for $m$ large enough, then $f$ is...
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I am working on exercice 9.5.2 of Analysis by Zorich and I am stuck at the question b.
a) A set $Esubset X$ of a metric space $(X,d)$ is nowhere dense in X if it is not dense in any ball, that is, if for every ball $B(x,r)$ there is a second ball $B(x_1,r_1)subset B(x,r)$ containing no points of the set $E$.
A set E is of first category in X if it can be represented as a countable union of nowhere dense sets. A set that is not of first category is of second category in $X$. Show that a complete metric space is set of second category (in itself).
b) Show that if a function $fin C^{(infty)}[a,b]$ is such that $forall xin [a,b] ;exists nin mathbb{N} ;forall m>n ;(f^{(m)}(x)=0)$, then $f$ is a polynomial.
Here's my try: Define the sets $S_n:={xin[a,b]mid f^{(m)}(x)=0; forall m>n}$. Then $cup_{n=1}^{infty} S_n =[a,b]$. As $[a,b]$ is a complete metric space, $S_n$ cannot be all nowhere dense. Define $Y:={xin [a,b] mid text{ there exists a neighborhood of } x text{ and } n text{ such that } S_n text{ is dense in that neighborhood}$. I want to say that $Y=[a,b]$ so that I could conclude with the compactness of $[a,b]$. But all I can say is that the complement of $Y$ in $[a,b]$ contains no interval.
Can you help me? Thanks!
analysis
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add a comment |
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I am working on exercice 9.5.2 of Analysis by Zorich and I am stuck at the question b.
a) A set $Esubset X$ of a metric space $(X,d)$ is nowhere dense in X if it is not dense in any ball, that is, if for every ball $B(x,r)$ there is a second ball $B(x_1,r_1)subset B(x,r)$ containing no points of the set $E$.
A set E is of first category in X if it can be represented as a countable union of nowhere dense sets. A set that is not of first category is of second category in $X$. Show that a complete metric space is set of second category (in itself).
b) Show that if a function $fin C^{(infty)}[a,b]$ is such that $forall xin [a,b] ;exists nin mathbb{N} ;forall m>n ;(f^{(m)}(x)=0)$, then $f$ is a polynomial.
Here's my try: Define the sets $S_n:={xin[a,b]mid f^{(m)}(x)=0; forall m>n}$. Then $cup_{n=1}^{infty} S_n =[a,b]$. As $[a,b]$ is a complete metric space, $S_n$ cannot be all nowhere dense. Define $Y:={xin [a,b] mid text{ there exists a neighborhood of } x text{ and } n text{ such that } S_n text{ is dense in that neighborhood}$. I want to say that $Y=[a,b]$ so that I could conclude with the compactness of $[a,b]$. But all I can say is that the complement of $Y$ in $[a,b]$ contains no interval.
Can you help me? Thanks!
analysis
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am working on exercice 9.5.2 of Analysis by Zorich and I am stuck at the question b.
a) A set $Esubset X$ of a metric space $(X,d)$ is nowhere dense in X if it is not dense in any ball, that is, if for every ball $B(x,r)$ there is a second ball $B(x_1,r_1)subset B(x,r)$ containing no points of the set $E$.
A set E is of first category in X if it can be represented as a countable union of nowhere dense sets. A set that is not of first category is of second category in $X$. Show that a complete metric space is set of second category (in itself).
b) Show that if a function $fin C^{(infty)}[a,b]$ is such that $forall xin [a,b] ;exists nin mathbb{N} ;forall m>n ;(f^{(m)}(x)=0)$, then $f$ is a polynomial.
Here's my try: Define the sets $S_n:={xin[a,b]mid f^{(m)}(x)=0; forall m>n}$. Then $cup_{n=1}^{infty} S_n =[a,b]$. As $[a,b]$ is a complete metric space, $S_n$ cannot be all nowhere dense. Define $Y:={xin [a,b] mid text{ there exists a neighborhood of } x text{ and } n text{ such that } S_n text{ is dense in that neighborhood}$. I want to say that $Y=[a,b]$ so that I could conclude with the compactness of $[a,b]$. But all I can say is that the complement of $Y$ in $[a,b]$ contains no interval.
Can you help me? Thanks!
analysis
$endgroup$
I am working on exercice 9.5.2 of Analysis by Zorich and I am stuck at the question b.
a) A set $Esubset X$ of a metric space $(X,d)$ is nowhere dense in X if it is not dense in any ball, that is, if for every ball $B(x,r)$ there is a second ball $B(x_1,r_1)subset B(x,r)$ containing no points of the set $E$.
A set E is of first category in X if it can be represented as a countable union of nowhere dense sets. A set that is not of first category is of second category in $X$. Show that a complete metric space is set of second category (in itself).
b) Show that if a function $fin C^{(infty)}[a,b]$ is such that $forall xin [a,b] ;exists nin mathbb{N} ;forall m>n ;(f^{(m)}(x)=0)$, then $f$ is a polynomial.
Here's my try: Define the sets $S_n:={xin[a,b]mid f^{(m)}(x)=0; forall m>n}$. Then $cup_{n=1}^{infty} S_n =[a,b]$. As $[a,b]$ is a complete metric space, $S_n$ cannot be all nowhere dense. Define $Y:={xin [a,b] mid text{ there exists a neighborhood of } x text{ and } n text{ such that } S_n text{ is dense in that neighborhood}$. I want to say that $Y=[a,b]$ so that I could conclude with the compactness of $[a,b]$. But all I can say is that the complement of $Y$ in $[a,b]$ contains no interval.
Can you help me? Thanks!
analysis
analysis
asked Dec 16 '18 at 15:26
JiuJiu
515113
515113
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3 Answers
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Here is a sketch of a possible approach, which may have some holes, but it is too long for a comment. Maybe someone can patch it up.Picking up on your idea, set
$T = {tin [a,b]: forall (c,d)ni t: frestriction_{(c,d)}$ is not a polynomial$}$
Then $T$ is non-empty and closed. By construction, it has no isolated points. Now we may apply the Baire theorem on ${Tcap S_n}$ to find an interval $(c,d)$ such that for some $nin mathbb N, (c,d)cap Tsubset S_n$.
Now, $f$ is a polynomial on $(c,d)setminus T,$ which is open and so contains an interval $(alpha,beta)$, which we may take to be maximal: indeed, $(c,d)setminus T$ is a countable disjoint union of intervals $bigcup_n(a_n,b_n)$ and so ${x:a',b'in (a,b)setminus T text{and} b'-a'ge b_n-a_n}$ is a maximal interval in $(a,b)setminus T$.
Now, either $alpha$ or $betain T$. Suppose $alphain T$. Then, on every interval $(c',c'')$ containing $alpha, f$ is $not$ a polynomial. Choose $c'''$ such that $c'<alpha<c'''<c''<d$. Then, $f$ is not a polynomial on $(c''',c'').$ But since $(c''',c'')subseteq (alpha,beta)$, so we have a contradiction.
So, either there is no such interval $(c,d)$ or $T$ is empty. In either case, the result follows.
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Thank you for your answer. I’ll have to think about it for a while.
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– Jiu
Dec 17 '18 at 5:09
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I think my proof needs work and I am hoping somebody can supply the missing details/fix the errors.
$endgroup$
– Matematleta
Dec 17 '18 at 21:12
add a comment |
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You can ‘trace’ the $m$th derivative back to the original function recursively. If $f^{(m)}(x) = 0$ for all $x in [a,b]$, then $f^{(m-1)}(x) = int f^{(m)}(x) , mathrm{d}x = int 0,mathrm{d}x=c_0$. Subsequently, $f^{(m-2)}(x) = int c_0,mathrm{d}x=c_1x+c_0$. Applying this technique $m$ times, we see that $f(x) = c_mx^m + c_{m-1}x^{m-1}+dots + c_1x + c_0$, which is a polynomial by definition.
(Note that the indices $c_1, c_0$ etc. are not necessarily the same for each iteration, they are just arbitrary constants, where the index indicates the power of $x$ associated to it.)
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Thanks for your answer. But the assumption is not that there is an m uniformly for all x, but for all x m-th derivative is zero for m large enough.
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– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:36
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But doesn't that imply there also exists an $m$ for which $f^{(m)}(x)=0$ for all $x$? (That is, the maximum $m$ that you need for any individual $x$.)
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– molarmass
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
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the supremum maybe infinite
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– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
add a comment |
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b) Show that if a function $fin C^{(infty)}[a,b]$ is such that $forall xin [a,b] ;exists nin mathbb{N} ;forall m>n ;(f^{(m)}(x)=0)$, then $f$ is a polynomial.
It suffices to require that $f^n(x)=0$ and this is a well-known fact.
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3 Answers
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active
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
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Here is a sketch of a possible approach, which may have some holes, but it is too long for a comment. Maybe someone can patch it up.Picking up on your idea, set
$T = {tin [a,b]: forall (c,d)ni t: frestriction_{(c,d)}$ is not a polynomial$}$
Then $T$ is non-empty and closed. By construction, it has no isolated points. Now we may apply the Baire theorem on ${Tcap S_n}$ to find an interval $(c,d)$ such that for some $nin mathbb N, (c,d)cap Tsubset S_n$.
Now, $f$ is a polynomial on $(c,d)setminus T,$ which is open and so contains an interval $(alpha,beta)$, which we may take to be maximal: indeed, $(c,d)setminus T$ is a countable disjoint union of intervals $bigcup_n(a_n,b_n)$ and so ${x:a',b'in (a,b)setminus T text{and} b'-a'ge b_n-a_n}$ is a maximal interval in $(a,b)setminus T$.
Now, either $alpha$ or $betain T$. Suppose $alphain T$. Then, on every interval $(c',c'')$ containing $alpha, f$ is $not$ a polynomial. Choose $c'''$ such that $c'<alpha<c'''<c''<d$. Then, $f$ is not a polynomial on $(c''',c'').$ But since $(c''',c'')subseteq (alpha,beta)$, so we have a contradiction.
So, either there is no such interval $(c,d)$ or $T$ is empty. In either case, the result follows.
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Thank you for your answer. I’ll have to think about it for a while.
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– Jiu
Dec 17 '18 at 5:09
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I think my proof needs work and I am hoping somebody can supply the missing details/fix the errors.
$endgroup$
– Matematleta
Dec 17 '18 at 21:12
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here is a sketch of a possible approach, which may have some holes, but it is too long for a comment. Maybe someone can patch it up.Picking up on your idea, set
$T = {tin [a,b]: forall (c,d)ni t: frestriction_{(c,d)}$ is not a polynomial$}$
Then $T$ is non-empty and closed. By construction, it has no isolated points. Now we may apply the Baire theorem on ${Tcap S_n}$ to find an interval $(c,d)$ such that for some $nin mathbb N, (c,d)cap Tsubset S_n$.
Now, $f$ is a polynomial on $(c,d)setminus T,$ which is open and so contains an interval $(alpha,beta)$, which we may take to be maximal: indeed, $(c,d)setminus T$ is a countable disjoint union of intervals $bigcup_n(a_n,b_n)$ and so ${x:a',b'in (a,b)setminus T text{and} b'-a'ge b_n-a_n}$ is a maximal interval in $(a,b)setminus T$.
Now, either $alpha$ or $betain T$. Suppose $alphain T$. Then, on every interval $(c',c'')$ containing $alpha, f$ is $not$ a polynomial. Choose $c'''$ such that $c'<alpha<c'''<c''<d$. Then, $f$ is not a polynomial on $(c''',c'').$ But since $(c''',c'')subseteq (alpha,beta)$, so we have a contradiction.
So, either there is no such interval $(c,d)$ or $T$ is empty. In either case, the result follows.
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Thank you for your answer. I’ll have to think about it for a while.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 17 '18 at 5:09
$begingroup$
I think my proof needs work and I am hoping somebody can supply the missing details/fix the errors.
$endgroup$
– Matematleta
Dec 17 '18 at 21:12
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here is a sketch of a possible approach, which may have some holes, but it is too long for a comment. Maybe someone can patch it up.Picking up on your idea, set
$T = {tin [a,b]: forall (c,d)ni t: frestriction_{(c,d)}$ is not a polynomial$}$
Then $T$ is non-empty and closed. By construction, it has no isolated points. Now we may apply the Baire theorem on ${Tcap S_n}$ to find an interval $(c,d)$ such that for some $nin mathbb N, (c,d)cap Tsubset S_n$.
Now, $f$ is a polynomial on $(c,d)setminus T,$ which is open and so contains an interval $(alpha,beta)$, which we may take to be maximal: indeed, $(c,d)setminus T$ is a countable disjoint union of intervals $bigcup_n(a_n,b_n)$ and so ${x:a',b'in (a,b)setminus T text{and} b'-a'ge b_n-a_n}$ is a maximal interval in $(a,b)setminus T$.
Now, either $alpha$ or $betain T$. Suppose $alphain T$. Then, on every interval $(c',c'')$ containing $alpha, f$ is $not$ a polynomial. Choose $c'''$ such that $c'<alpha<c'''<c''<d$. Then, $f$ is not a polynomial on $(c''',c'').$ But since $(c''',c'')subseteq (alpha,beta)$, so we have a contradiction.
So, either there is no such interval $(c,d)$ or $T$ is empty. In either case, the result follows.
$endgroup$
Here is a sketch of a possible approach, which may have some holes, but it is too long for a comment. Maybe someone can patch it up.Picking up on your idea, set
$T = {tin [a,b]: forall (c,d)ni t: frestriction_{(c,d)}$ is not a polynomial$}$
Then $T$ is non-empty and closed. By construction, it has no isolated points. Now we may apply the Baire theorem on ${Tcap S_n}$ to find an interval $(c,d)$ such that for some $nin mathbb N, (c,d)cap Tsubset S_n$.
Now, $f$ is a polynomial on $(c,d)setminus T,$ which is open and so contains an interval $(alpha,beta)$, which we may take to be maximal: indeed, $(c,d)setminus T$ is a countable disjoint union of intervals $bigcup_n(a_n,b_n)$ and so ${x:a',b'in (a,b)setminus T text{and} b'-a'ge b_n-a_n}$ is a maximal interval in $(a,b)setminus T$.
Now, either $alpha$ or $betain T$. Suppose $alphain T$. Then, on every interval $(c',c'')$ containing $alpha, f$ is $not$ a polynomial. Choose $c'''$ such that $c'<alpha<c'''<c''<d$. Then, $f$ is not a polynomial on $(c''',c'').$ But since $(c''',c'')subseteq (alpha,beta)$, so we have a contradiction.
So, either there is no such interval $(c,d)$ or $T$ is empty. In either case, the result follows.
edited Dec 16 '18 at 20:07
answered Dec 16 '18 at 17:45
MatematletaMatematleta
11.5k2920
11.5k2920
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Thank you for your answer. I’ll have to think about it for a while.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 17 '18 at 5:09
$begingroup$
I think my proof needs work and I am hoping somebody can supply the missing details/fix the errors.
$endgroup$
– Matematleta
Dec 17 '18 at 21:12
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer. I’ll have to think about it for a while.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 17 '18 at 5:09
$begingroup$
I think my proof needs work and I am hoping somebody can supply the missing details/fix the errors.
$endgroup$
– Matematleta
Dec 17 '18 at 21:12
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer. I’ll have to think about it for a while.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 17 '18 at 5:09
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer. I’ll have to think about it for a while.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 17 '18 at 5:09
$begingroup$
I think my proof needs work and I am hoping somebody can supply the missing details/fix the errors.
$endgroup$
– Matematleta
Dec 17 '18 at 21:12
$begingroup$
I think my proof needs work and I am hoping somebody can supply the missing details/fix the errors.
$endgroup$
– Matematleta
Dec 17 '18 at 21:12
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can ‘trace’ the $m$th derivative back to the original function recursively. If $f^{(m)}(x) = 0$ for all $x in [a,b]$, then $f^{(m-1)}(x) = int f^{(m)}(x) , mathrm{d}x = int 0,mathrm{d}x=c_0$. Subsequently, $f^{(m-2)}(x) = int c_0,mathrm{d}x=c_1x+c_0$. Applying this technique $m$ times, we see that $f(x) = c_mx^m + c_{m-1}x^{m-1}+dots + c_1x + c_0$, which is a polynomial by definition.
(Note that the indices $c_1, c_0$ etc. are not necessarily the same for each iteration, they are just arbitrary constants, where the index indicates the power of $x$ associated to it.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks for your answer. But the assumption is not that there is an m uniformly for all x, but for all x m-th derivative is zero for m large enough.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:36
$begingroup$
But doesn't that imply there also exists an $m$ for which $f^{(m)}(x)=0$ for all $x$? (That is, the maximum $m$ that you need for any individual $x$.)
$endgroup$
– molarmass
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
$begingroup$
the supremum maybe infinite
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can ‘trace’ the $m$th derivative back to the original function recursively. If $f^{(m)}(x) = 0$ for all $x in [a,b]$, then $f^{(m-1)}(x) = int f^{(m)}(x) , mathrm{d}x = int 0,mathrm{d}x=c_0$. Subsequently, $f^{(m-2)}(x) = int c_0,mathrm{d}x=c_1x+c_0$. Applying this technique $m$ times, we see that $f(x) = c_mx^m + c_{m-1}x^{m-1}+dots + c_1x + c_0$, which is a polynomial by definition.
(Note that the indices $c_1, c_0$ etc. are not necessarily the same for each iteration, they are just arbitrary constants, where the index indicates the power of $x$ associated to it.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks for your answer. But the assumption is not that there is an m uniformly for all x, but for all x m-th derivative is zero for m large enough.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:36
$begingroup$
But doesn't that imply there also exists an $m$ for which $f^{(m)}(x)=0$ for all $x$? (That is, the maximum $m$ that you need for any individual $x$.)
$endgroup$
– molarmass
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
$begingroup$
the supremum maybe infinite
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can ‘trace’ the $m$th derivative back to the original function recursively. If $f^{(m)}(x) = 0$ for all $x in [a,b]$, then $f^{(m-1)}(x) = int f^{(m)}(x) , mathrm{d}x = int 0,mathrm{d}x=c_0$. Subsequently, $f^{(m-2)}(x) = int c_0,mathrm{d}x=c_1x+c_0$. Applying this technique $m$ times, we see that $f(x) = c_mx^m + c_{m-1}x^{m-1}+dots + c_1x + c_0$, which is a polynomial by definition.
(Note that the indices $c_1, c_0$ etc. are not necessarily the same for each iteration, they are just arbitrary constants, where the index indicates the power of $x$ associated to it.)
$endgroup$
You can ‘trace’ the $m$th derivative back to the original function recursively. If $f^{(m)}(x) = 0$ for all $x in [a,b]$, then $f^{(m-1)}(x) = int f^{(m)}(x) , mathrm{d}x = int 0,mathrm{d}x=c_0$. Subsequently, $f^{(m-2)}(x) = int c_0,mathrm{d}x=c_1x+c_0$. Applying this technique $m$ times, we see that $f(x) = c_mx^m + c_{m-1}x^{m-1}+dots + c_1x + c_0$, which is a polynomial by definition.
(Note that the indices $c_1, c_0$ etc. are not necessarily the same for each iteration, they are just arbitrary constants, where the index indicates the power of $x$ associated to it.)
answered Dec 19 '18 at 13:30
molarmassmolarmass
1,401615
1,401615
$begingroup$
Thanks for your answer. But the assumption is not that there is an m uniformly for all x, but for all x m-th derivative is zero for m large enough.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:36
$begingroup$
But doesn't that imply there also exists an $m$ for which $f^{(m)}(x)=0$ for all $x$? (That is, the maximum $m$ that you need for any individual $x$.)
$endgroup$
– molarmass
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
$begingroup$
the supremum maybe infinite
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks for your answer. But the assumption is not that there is an m uniformly for all x, but for all x m-th derivative is zero for m large enough.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:36
$begingroup$
But doesn't that imply there also exists an $m$ for which $f^{(m)}(x)=0$ for all $x$? (That is, the maximum $m$ that you need for any individual $x$.)
$endgroup$
– molarmass
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
$begingroup$
the supremum maybe infinite
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
$begingroup$
Thanks for your answer. But the assumption is not that there is an m uniformly for all x, but for all x m-th derivative is zero for m large enough.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:36
$begingroup$
Thanks for your answer. But the assumption is not that there is an m uniformly for all x, but for all x m-th derivative is zero for m large enough.
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:36
$begingroup$
But doesn't that imply there also exists an $m$ for which $f^{(m)}(x)=0$ for all $x$? (That is, the maximum $m$ that you need for any individual $x$.)
$endgroup$
– molarmass
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
$begingroup$
But doesn't that imply there also exists an $m$ for which $f^{(m)}(x)=0$ for all $x$? (That is, the maximum $m$ that you need for any individual $x$.)
$endgroup$
– molarmass
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
$begingroup$
the supremum maybe infinite
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
$begingroup$
the supremum maybe infinite
$endgroup$
– Jiu
Dec 19 '18 at 13:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
b) Show that if a function $fin C^{(infty)}[a,b]$ is such that $forall xin [a,b] ;exists nin mathbb{N} ;forall m>n ;(f^{(m)}(x)=0)$, then $f$ is a polynomial.
It suffices to require that $f^n(x)=0$ and this is a well-known fact.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
b) Show that if a function $fin C^{(infty)}[a,b]$ is such that $forall xin [a,b] ;exists nin mathbb{N} ;forall m>n ;(f^{(m)}(x)=0)$, then $f$ is a polynomial.
It suffices to require that $f^n(x)=0$ and this is a well-known fact.
$endgroup$
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$begingroup$
b) Show that if a function $fin C^{(infty)}[a,b]$ is such that $forall xin [a,b] ;exists nin mathbb{N} ;forall m>n ;(f^{(m)}(x)=0)$, then $f$ is a polynomial.
It suffices to require that $f^n(x)=0$ and this is a well-known fact.
$endgroup$
b) Show that if a function $fin C^{(infty)}[a,b]$ is such that $forall xin [a,b] ;exists nin mathbb{N} ;forall m>n ;(f^{(m)}(x)=0)$, then $f$ is a polynomial.
It suffices to require that $f^n(x)=0$ and this is a well-known fact.
answered Dec 20 '18 at 1:08
Alex RavskyAlex Ravsky
42.6k32383
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