Why did Sauron die when the Ring was destroyed in Mount Doom?
When Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand, he returned again. But when Frodo went to Mount Doom and accidentally Gollum cast the Ring along with himself, Sauron was defeated and never came back again. Why is this?
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings the-one-ring sauron
asked Dec 15 '18 at 4:20
the-profile-that-was-promisedthe-profile-that-was-promised
1,96331526
add a comment |
When Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand, he returned again. But when Frodo went to Mount Doom and accidentally Gollum cast the Ring along with himself, Sauron was defeated and never came back again. Why is this?
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings the-one-ring sauron
asked Dec 15 '18 at 4:20
the-profile-that-was-promisedthe-profile-that-was-promised
1,96331526
14
Not an answer because I'm just speculating, but this is how I've always seen it: Isildur killed Sauron's body, and the only reason Sauron survived that was his magic, which itself survived because it was imbued in the Ring. No More Ring meant No More Magic, which in turn meant No More Cheating Death.
– Harry Johnston
Dec 15 '18 at 4:29
1
Linked or possible dupe:scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/37670/…
– Mat Cauthon
Dec 15 '18 at 4:57
4
Did he die? I didn't think he did, just became so diminished in power that he couldn't do much anymore.
– jpmc26
Dec 16 '18 at 19:31
1
@jpmc26 I read where Tolkein said that exact thing
– Shawn V. Wilson
Dec 16 '18 at 22:38
add a comment |
When Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand, he returned again. But when Frodo went to Mount Doom and accidentally Gollum cast the Ring along with himself, Sauron was defeated and never came back again. Why is this?
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings the-one-ring sauron
asked Dec 15 '18 at 4:20
the-profile-that-was-promisedthe-profile-that-was-promised
1,96331526
When Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand, he returned again. But when Frodo went to Mount Doom and accidentally Gollum cast the Ring along with himself, Sauron was defeated and never came back again. Why is this?
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings the-one-ring sauron
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings the-one-ring sauron
asked Dec 15 '18 at 4:20
the-profile-that-was-promisedthe-profile-that-was-promised
1,96331526
asked Dec 15 '18 at 4:20
the-profile-that-was-promisedthe-profile-that-was-promised
1,96331526
asked Dec 15 '18 at 4:20
the-profile-that-was-promisedthe-profile-that-was-promised
1,96331526
asked Dec 15 '18 at 4:20
the-profile-that-was-promisedthe-profile-that-was-promised
1,96331526
asked Dec 15 '18 at 4:20
the-profile-that-was-promisedthe-profile-that-was-promised
1,96331526
1,96331526
14
Not an answer because I'm just speculating, but this is how I've always seen it: Isildur killed Sauron's body, and the only reason Sauron survived that was his magic, which itself survived because it was imbued in the Ring. No More Ring meant No More Magic, which in turn meant No More Cheating Death.
– Harry Johnston
Dec 15 '18 at 4:29
1
Linked or possible dupe:scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/37670/…
– Mat Cauthon
Dec 15 '18 at 4:57
4
Did he die? I didn't think he did, just became so diminished in power that he couldn't do much anymore.
– jpmc26
Dec 16 '18 at 19:31
1
@jpmc26 I read where Tolkein said that exact thing
– Shawn V. Wilson
Dec 16 '18 at 22:38
add a comment |
14
Not an answer because I'm just speculating, but this is how I've always seen it: Isildur killed Sauron's body, and the only reason Sauron survived that was his magic, which itself survived because it was imbued in the Ring. No More Ring meant No More Magic, which in turn meant No More Cheating Death.
– Harry Johnston
Dec 15 '18 at 4:29
1
Linked or possible dupe:scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/37670/…
– Mat Cauthon
Dec 15 '18 at 4:57
4
Did he die? I didn't think he did, just became so diminished in power that he couldn't do much anymore.
– jpmc26
Dec 16 '18 at 19:31
1
@jpmc26 I read where Tolkein said that exact thing
– Shawn V. Wilson
Dec 16 '18 at 22:38
14
14
Not an answer because I'm just speculating, but this is how I've always seen it: Isildur killed Sauron's body, and the only reason Sauron survived that was his magic, which itself survived because it was imbued in the Ring. No More Ring meant No More Magic, which in turn meant No More Cheating Death.
– Harry Johnston
Dec 15 '18 at 4:29
Not an answer because I'm just speculating, but this is how I've always seen it: Isildur killed Sauron's body, and the only reason Sauron survived that was his magic, which itself survived because it was imbued in the Ring. No More Ring meant No More Magic, which in turn meant No More Cheating Death.
– Harry Johnston
Dec 15 '18 at 4:29
1
1
Linked or possible dupe:scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/37670/…
– Mat Cauthon
Dec 15 '18 at 4:57
Linked or possible dupe:scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/37670/…
– Mat Cauthon
Dec 15 '18 at 4:57
4
4
Did he die? I didn't think he did, just became so diminished in power that he couldn't do much anymore.
– jpmc26
Dec 16 '18 at 19:31
Did he die? I didn't think he did, just became so diminished in power that he couldn't do much anymore.
– jpmc26
Dec 16 '18 at 19:31
1
1
@jpmc26 I read where Tolkein said that exact thing
– Shawn V. Wilson
Dec 16 '18 at 22:38
@jpmc26 I read where Tolkein said that exact thing
– Shawn V. Wilson
Dec 16 '18 at 22:38
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
Sauron passed a tremendous amount of his own native power as a Maia into the Ring he forged. Gandalf outlines the situation to Frodo in "The Shadow of the Past":
He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others.
Tolkien, the Old English scholar, uses "great part" here. The Oxford English Dictionary has this gloss (with citations going back to Middle English) for a subsense of great
c.With the. That constitutes more than half, larger, as the great body (of), the great part (of), etc.
indicating specifically more than half. However, as dfri noted in a comment, here Gandalf says "a great part," not "the great part," which only indicates a large portion of Sauron's power, not necessarily the majority. However, he does later clarify that it was indeed the majority. (See below.)
So Sauron placed most of his natural power in his artifact. And actually, it seems likely that he placed almost all of his power in it. The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring. Once Sauron put it on, he was more powerful than he ever had been before, and to get the greatest advantage from the Ring, it would be natural for him imbue the Ring with as much of his power as possible, so as to get the largest multiplier effect.
The situation changed significantly when the Dark Lord lost possession of the One Ring. Without it in his possession, he could not use its powers to their fullest potential. However, as long as the Ring existed (and no other power had managed to claim and master the Ring), Sauron still benefited from its powers. The foundations of Barad-dur were secure, and the Ringwraiths were his dutiful servants.
When the Ring went into the Cracks of Doom, all the power that went into it was completely dissipated. Up to that point, Sauron had managed to maintain his position though his distant communion with the Ring that contained so much of his native power. When that power was dispersed, he was not left with enough to have any remaining power over the world. While he was not quite dead, he was reduced to a powerless husk. Gandalf again, in "The Last Debate":
For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.
Note that here, the wizard says unambiguously that "the best part" of Sauron's power went into the Ring.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 4:54
BuzzBuzz
38.1k7128208
18
Nice answer (+1), but for some nitpicking: Tolkien writes a great part, whereas it is specifically when used with the definite article (the) that great part is explicitly referring to a majority/more than half. A great half is more vague, and could mean a majority but could also mean a major chunk, say one third. What Tolkien had in mind, in the end, I guess we can never entirely know, but I assume he used the indefinite/generalizing article intendedly, and while perhaps Saurons ”core power” was placed in the ring, I wouldn’t interpret the quote above as specifically more than half.
– dfri
Dec 15 '18 at 8:37
4
+1, but do you have a citation for this?: “The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring”
– jl6
Dec 16 '18 at 9:43
1
@dfri "For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning" suggests that "the" is the intended meaning.
– wizzwizz4
Dec 16 '18 at 9:50
@dfri You are correct, and I edited the answer accordingly.
– Buzz
Dec 17 '18 at 4:48
add a comment |
Sauron has actually physically "died" at least 3 times:
- Luthien "killed" him when she overthrew his fortress on the Isle of Werewolves in the First Age.
- At the Downfall of Numenor.
- When Isildur took the Ring from him.
There is a distinction between physical and spiritual "death" in Tolkien. As a Maia, and similar to the Elves, Sauron's spirit is actually bound to the world, cannot leave the world until the End, and can be re-bodied in certain circumstances.
Sauron did not die when the Ring was destroyed
His spirit remained bound to the world, but greatly diminished and no longer capable of much. This is explicitly stated in the text.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 8:58
Victim of CircumstanceVictim of Circumstance
2412
2
Sauron seems to have ended up in the Void after becoming a greatly diminished spirit - apparently helped along by the wind from the west. He "walked behind him [Morgoth] on the same ruinous path down into the void.”
– Shamshiel
Dec 15 '18 at 15:01
Luthien threatened to kill him unless he withdrew, which he chose to do rather than suffer the inconvenience of a physical "death". It's never been clear to me if he was actually killed during the Downfall of Numenor, or if there was a voluntary withdrawal from his physical form (which may have been a state somewhere between "life" and "death").
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:16
Walking the same path doesn't imply the final destination was the same. Morgoth's Ring (Arda) was never destroyed; Sauron's was, so there was little need to banish the rest of him. (Besides, the metaphysics of opening the door into the Void were never described; perhaps the risk of Morgoth returning if the door were opened outweighed the risk of letting the mere shadow of Sauron remain in Middle Earth.)
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:18
2
You say This is explicitly stated in the text – in that case, do you think you could give a quote with a reference (ideally for all three “deaths”)? If you can, this answer will be worth my up-vote. Anyway, do you mean in The Lord of the Rings or some other text?
– PJTraill
Dec 16 '18 at 23:31
add a comment |
It's stated quite clearly that Sauron put the greater part of his own essence into the ring, and although being away from the ring weakened him, it did not do so catastrophically; that part of his essence was still around to keep him strong enough for his purposes.
When the ring was destroyed, that part of his essence was either destroyed (or so it was assumed by everybody who knew about these things) or it was removed from the world entirely so that for all purposes within Arda, it may as well have been destroyed.
It's sort of like putting 90% of your money into the stock of a company. As long as the company is in good shape, for all intents and purposes you are still as rich as you were. But if the company goes bankrupt, such that the stock becomes worthless, then you truly plummet to 10% of your former net worth.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 5:01
EvilSnackEvilSnack
2,30469
I like the stock analogy.
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:19
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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Sauron passed a tremendous amount of his own native power as a Maia into the Ring he forged. Gandalf outlines the situation to Frodo in "The Shadow of the Past":
He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others.
Tolkien, the Old English scholar, uses "great part" here. The Oxford English Dictionary has this gloss (with citations going back to Middle English) for a subsense of great
c.With the. That constitutes more than half, larger, as the great body (of), the great part (of), etc.
indicating specifically more than half. However, as dfri noted in a comment, here Gandalf says "a great part," not "the great part," which only indicates a large portion of Sauron's power, not necessarily the majority. However, he does later clarify that it was indeed the majority. (See below.)
So Sauron placed most of his natural power in his artifact. And actually, it seems likely that he placed almost all of his power in it. The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring. Once Sauron put it on, he was more powerful than he ever had been before, and to get the greatest advantage from the Ring, it would be natural for him imbue the Ring with as much of his power as possible, so as to get the largest multiplier effect.
The situation changed significantly when the Dark Lord lost possession of the One Ring. Without it in his possession, he could not use its powers to their fullest potential. However, as long as the Ring existed (and no other power had managed to claim and master the Ring), Sauron still benefited from its powers. The foundations of Barad-dur were secure, and the Ringwraiths were his dutiful servants.
When the Ring went into the Cracks of Doom, all the power that went into it was completely dissipated. Up to that point, Sauron had managed to maintain his position though his distant communion with the Ring that contained so much of his native power. When that power was dispersed, he was not left with enough to have any remaining power over the world. While he was not quite dead, he was reduced to a powerless husk. Gandalf again, in "The Last Debate":
For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.
Note that here, the wizard says unambiguously that "the best part" of Sauron's power went into the Ring.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 4:54
BuzzBuzz
38.1k7128208
18
Nice answer (+1), but for some nitpicking: Tolkien writes a great part, whereas it is specifically when used with the definite article (the) that great part is explicitly referring to a majority/more than half. A great half is more vague, and could mean a majority but could also mean a major chunk, say one third. What Tolkien had in mind, in the end, I guess we can never entirely know, but I assume he used the indefinite/generalizing article intendedly, and while perhaps Saurons ”core power” was placed in the ring, I wouldn’t interpret the quote above as specifically more than half.
– dfri
Dec 15 '18 at 8:37
4
+1, but do you have a citation for this?: “The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring”
– jl6
Dec 16 '18 at 9:43
1
@dfri "For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning" suggests that "the" is the intended meaning.
– wizzwizz4
Dec 16 '18 at 9:50
@dfri You are correct, and I edited the answer accordingly.
– Buzz
Dec 17 '18 at 4:48
add a comment |
Sauron passed a tremendous amount of his own native power as a Maia into the Ring he forged. Gandalf outlines the situation to Frodo in "The Shadow of the Past":
He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others.
Tolkien, the Old English scholar, uses "great part" here. The Oxford English Dictionary has this gloss (with citations going back to Middle English) for a subsense of great
c.With the. That constitutes more than half, larger, as the great body (of), the great part (of), etc.
indicating specifically more than half. However, as dfri noted in a comment, here Gandalf says "a great part," not "the great part," which only indicates a large portion of Sauron's power, not necessarily the majority. However, he does later clarify that it was indeed the majority. (See below.)
So Sauron placed most of his natural power in his artifact. And actually, it seems likely that he placed almost all of his power in it. The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring. Once Sauron put it on, he was more powerful than he ever had been before, and to get the greatest advantage from the Ring, it would be natural for him imbue the Ring with as much of his power as possible, so as to get the largest multiplier effect.
The situation changed significantly when the Dark Lord lost possession of the One Ring. Without it in his possession, he could not use its powers to their fullest potential. However, as long as the Ring existed (and no other power had managed to claim and master the Ring), Sauron still benefited from its powers. The foundations of Barad-dur were secure, and the Ringwraiths were his dutiful servants.
When the Ring went into the Cracks of Doom, all the power that went into it was completely dissipated. Up to that point, Sauron had managed to maintain his position though his distant communion with the Ring that contained so much of his native power. When that power was dispersed, he was not left with enough to have any remaining power over the world. While he was not quite dead, he was reduced to a powerless husk. Gandalf again, in "The Last Debate":
For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.
Note that here, the wizard says unambiguously that "the best part" of Sauron's power went into the Ring.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 4:54
BuzzBuzz
38.1k7128208
18
Nice answer (+1), but for some nitpicking: Tolkien writes a great part, whereas it is specifically when used with the definite article (the) that great part is explicitly referring to a majority/more than half. A great half is more vague, and could mean a majority but could also mean a major chunk, say one third. What Tolkien had in mind, in the end, I guess we can never entirely know, but I assume he used the indefinite/generalizing article intendedly, and while perhaps Saurons ”core power” was placed in the ring, I wouldn’t interpret the quote above as specifically more than half.
– dfri
Dec 15 '18 at 8:37
4
+1, but do you have a citation for this?: “The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring”
– jl6
Dec 16 '18 at 9:43
1
@dfri "For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning" suggests that "the" is the intended meaning.
– wizzwizz4
Dec 16 '18 at 9:50
@dfri You are correct, and I edited the answer accordingly.
– Buzz
Dec 17 '18 at 4:48
add a comment |
Sauron passed a tremendous amount of his own native power as a Maia into the Ring he forged. Gandalf outlines the situation to Frodo in "The Shadow of the Past":
He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others.
Tolkien, the Old English scholar, uses "great part" here. The Oxford English Dictionary has this gloss (with citations going back to Middle English) for a subsense of great
c.With the. That constitutes more than half, larger, as the great body (of), the great part (of), etc.
indicating specifically more than half. However, as dfri noted in a comment, here Gandalf says "a great part," not "the great part," which only indicates a large portion of Sauron's power, not necessarily the majority. However, he does later clarify that it was indeed the majority. (See below.)
So Sauron placed most of his natural power in his artifact. And actually, it seems likely that he placed almost all of his power in it. The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring. Once Sauron put it on, he was more powerful than he ever had been before, and to get the greatest advantage from the Ring, it would be natural for him imbue the Ring with as much of his power as possible, so as to get the largest multiplier effect.
The situation changed significantly when the Dark Lord lost possession of the One Ring. Without it in his possession, he could not use its powers to their fullest potential. However, as long as the Ring existed (and no other power had managed to claim and master the Ring), Sauron still benefited from its powers. The foundations of Barad-dur were secure, and the Ringwraiths were his dutiful servants.
When the Ring went into the Cracks of Doom, all the power that went into it was completely dissipated. Up to that point, Sauron had managed to maintain his position though his distant communion with the Ring that contained so much of his native power. When that power was dispersed, he was not left with enough to have any remaining power over the world. While he was not quite dead, he was reduced to a powerless husk. Gandalf again, in "The Last Debate":
For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.
Note that here, the wizard says unambiguously that "the best part" of Sauron's power went into the Ring.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 4:54
BuzzBuzz
38.1k7128208
Sauron passed a tremendous amount of his own native power as a Maia into the Ring he forged. Gandalf outlines the situation to Frodo in "The Shadow of the Past":
He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others.
Tolkien, the Old English scholar, uses "great part" here. The Oxford English Dictionary has this gloss (with citations going back to Middle English) for a subsense of great
c.With the. That constitutes more than half, larger, as the great body (of), the great part (of), etc.
indicating specifically more than half. However, as dfri noted in a comment, here Gandalf says "a great part," not "the great part," which only indicates a large portion of Sauron's power, not necessarily the majority. However, he does later clarify that it was indeed the majority. (See below.)
So Sauron placed most of his natural power in his artifact. And actually, it seems likely that he placed almost all of his power in it. The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring. Once Sauron put it on, he was more powerful than he ever had been before, and to get the greatest advantage from the Ring, it would be natural for him imbue the Ring with as much of his power as possible, so as to get the largest multiplier effect.
The situation changed significantly when the Dark Lord lost possession of the One Ring. Without it in his possession, he could not use its powers to their fullest potential. However, as long as the Ring existed (and no other power had managed to claim and master the Ring), Sauron still benefited from its powers. The foundations of Barad-dur were secure, and the Ringwraiths were his dutiful servants.
When the Ring went into the Cracks of Doom, all the power that went into it was completely dissipated. Up to that point, Sauron had managed to maintain his position though his distant communion with the Ring that contained so much of his native power. When that power was dispersed, he was not left with enough to have any remaining power over the world. While he was not quite dead, he was reduced to a powerless husk. Gandalf again, in "The Last Debate":
For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.
Note that here, the wizard says unambiguously that "the best part" of Sauron's power went into the Ring.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 4:54
BuzzBuzz
38.1k7128208
edited Dec 17 '18 at 0:28
answered Dec 15 '18 at 4:54
BuzzBuzz
38.1k7128208
answered Dec 15 '18 at 4:54
BuzzBuzz
38.1k7128208
answered Dec 15 '18 at 4:54
BuzzBuzz
38.1k7128208
38.1k7128208
18
Nice answer (+1), but for some nitpicking: Tolkien writes a great part, whereas it is specifically when used with the definite article (the) that great part is explicitly referring to a majority/more than half. A great half is more vague, and could mean a majority but could also mean a major chunk, say one third. What Tolkien had in mind, in the end, I guess we can never entirely know, but I assume he used the indefinite/generalizing article intendedly, and while perhaps Saurons ”core power” was placed in the ring, I wouldn’t interpret the quote above as specifically more than half.
– dfri
Dec 15 '18 at 8:37
4
+1, but do you have a citation for this?: “The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring”
– jl6
Dec 16 '18 at 9:43
1
@dfri "For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning" suggests that "the" is the intended meaning.
– wizzwizz4
Dec 16 '18 at 9:50
@dfri You are correct, and I edited the answer accordingly.
– Buzz
Dec 17 '18 at 4:48
add a comment |
18
Nice answer (+1), but for some nitpicking: Tolkien writes a great part, whereas it is specifically when used with the definite article (the) that great part is explicitly referring to a majority/more than half. A great half is more vague, and could mean a majority but could also mean a major chunk, say one third. What Tolkien had in mind, in the end, I guess we can never entirely know, but I assume he used the indefinite/generalizing article intendedly, and while perhaps Saurons ”core power” was placed in the ring, I wouldn’t interpret the quote above as specifically more than half.
– dfri
Dec 15 '18 at 8:37
4
+1, but do you have a citation for this?: “The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring”
– jl6
Dec 16 '18 at 9:43
1
@dfri "For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning" suggests that "the" is the intended meaning.
– wizzwizz4
Dec 16 '18 at 9:50
@dfri You are correct, and I edited the answer accordingly.
– Buzz
Dec 17 '18 at 4:48
18
18
Nice answer (+1), but for some nitpicking: Tolkien writes a great part, whereas it is specifically when used with the definite article (the) that great part is explicitly referring to a majority/more than half. A great half is more vague, and could mean a majority but could also mean a major chunk, say one third. What Tolkien had in mind, in the end, I guess we can never entirely know, but I assume he used the indefinite/generalizing article intendedly, and while perhaps Saurons ”core power” was placed in the ring, I wouldn’t interpret the quote above as specifically more than half.
– dfri
Dec 15 '18 at 8:37
Nice answer (+1), but for some nitpicking: Tolkien writes a great part, whereas it is specifically when used with the definite article (the) that great part is explicitly referring to a majority/more than half. A great half is more vague, and could mean a majority but could also mean a major chunk, say one third. What Tolkien had in mind, in the end, I guess we can never entirely know, but I assume he used the indefinite/generalizing article intendedly, and while perhaps Saurons ”core power” was placed in the ring, I wouldn’t interpret the quote above as specifically more than half.
– dfri
Dec 15 '18 at 8:37
4
4
+1, but do you have a citation for this?: “The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring”
– jl6
Dec 16 '18 at 9:43
+1, but do you have a citation for this?: “The power that went into the Ring was multiplied by the physical instrumentality of the Ring”
– jl6
Dec 16 '18 at 9:43
1
1
@dfri "For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning" suggests that "the" is the intended meaning.
– wizzwizz4
Dec 16 '18 at 9:50
@dfri "For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning" suggests that "the" is the intended meaning.
– wizzwizz4
Dec 16 '18 at 9:50
@dfri You are correct, and I edited the answer accordingly.
– Buzz
Dec 17 '18 at 4:48
@dfri You are correct, and I edited the answer accordingly.
– Buzz
Dec 17 '18 at 4:48
add a comment |
Sauron has actually physically "died" at least 3 times:
- Luthien "killed" him when she overthrew his fortress on the Isle of Werewolves in the First Age.
- At the Downfall of Numenor.
- When Isildur took the Ring from him.
There is a distinction between physical and spiritual "death" in Tolkien. As a Maia, and similar to the Elves, Sauron's spirit is actually bound to the world, cannot leave the world until the End, and can be re-bodied in certain circumstances.
Sauron did not die when the Ring was destroyed
His spirit remained bound to the world, but greatly diminished and no longer capable of much. This is explicitly stated in the text.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 8:58
Victim of CircumstanceVictim of Circumstance
2412
2
Sauron seems to have ended up in the Void after becoming a greatly diminished spirit - apparently helped along by the wind from the west. He "walked behind him [Morgoth] on the same ruinous path down into the void.”
– Shamshiel
Dec 15 '18 at 15:01
Luthien threatened to kill him unless he withdrew, which he chose to do rather than suffer the inconvenience of a physical "death". It's never been clear to me if he was actually killed during the Downfall of Numenor, or if there was a voluntary withdrawal from his physical form (which may have been a state somewhere between "life" and "death").
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:16
Walking the same path doesn't imply the final destination was the same. Morgoth's Ring (Arda) was never destroyed; Sauron's was, so there was little need to banish the rest of him. (Besides, the metaphysics of opening the door into the Void were never described; perhaps the risk of Morgoth returning if the door were opened outweighed the risk of letting the mere shadow of Sauron remain in Middle Earth.)
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:18
2
You say This is explicitly stated in the text – in that case, do you think you could give a quote with a reference (ideally for all three “deaths”)? If you can, this answer will be worth my up-vote. Anyway, do you mean in The Lord of the Rings or some other text?
– PJTraill
Dec 16 '18 at 23:31
add a comment |
Sauron has actually physically "died" at least 3 times:
- Luthien "killed" him when she overthrew his fortress on the Isle of Werewolves in the First Age.
- At the Downfall of Numenor.
- When Isildur took the Ring from him.
There is a distinction between physical and spiritual "death" in Tolkien. As a Maia, and similar to the Elves, Sauron's spirit is actually bound to the world, cannot leave the world until the End, and can be re-bodied in certain circumstances.
Sauron did not die when the Ring was destroyed
His spirit remained bound to the world, but greatly diminished and no longer capable of much. This is explicitly stated in the text.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 8:58
Victim of CircumstanceVictim of Circumstance
2412
2
Sauron seems to have ended up in the Void after becoming a greatly diminished spirit - apparently helped along by the wind from the west. He "walked behind him [Morgoth] on the same ruinous path down into the void.”
– Shamshiel
Dec 15 '18 at 15:01
Luthien threatened to kill him unless he withdrew, which he chose to do rather than suffer the inconvenience of a physical "death". It's never been clear to me if he was actually killed during the Downfall of Numenor, or if there was a voluntary withdrawal from his physical form (which may have been a state somewhere between "life" and "death").
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:16
Walking the same path doesn't imply the final destination was the same. Morgoth's Ring (Arda) was never destroyed; Sauron's was, so there was little need to banish the rest of him. (Besides, the metaphysics of opening the door into the Void were never described; perhaps the risk of Morgoth returning if the door were opened outweighed the risk of letting the mere shadow of Sauron remain in Middle Earth.)
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:18
2
You say This is explicitly stated in the text – in that case, do you think you could give a quote with a reference (ideally for all three “deaths”)? If you can, this answer will be worth my up-vote. Anyway, do you mean in The Lord of the Rings or some other text?
– PJTraill
Dec 16 '18 at 23:31
add a comment |
Sauron has actually physically "died" at least 3 times:
- Luthien "killed" him when she overthrew his fortress on the Isle of Werewolves in the First Age.
- At the Downfall of Numenor.
- When Isildur took the Ring from him.
There is a distinction between physical and spiritual "death" in Tolkien. As a Maia, and similar to the Elves, Sauron's spirit is actually bound to the world, cannot leave the world until the End, and can be re-bodied in certain circumstances.
Sauron did not die when the Ring was destroyed
His spirit remained bound to the world, but greatly diminished and no longer capable of much. This is explicitly stated in the text.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 8:58
Victim of CircumstanceVictim of Circumstance
2412
Sauron has actually physically "died" at least 3 times:
- Luthien "killed" him when she overthrew his fortress on the Isle of Werewolves in the First Age.
- At the Downfall of Numenor.
- When Isildur took the Ring from him.
There is a distinction between physical and spiritual "death" in Tolkien. As a Maia, and similar to the Elves, Sauron's spirit is actually bound to the world, cannot leave the world until the End, and can be re-bodied in certain circumstances.
Sauron did not die when the Ring was destroyed
His spirit remained bound to the world, but greatly diminished and no longer capable of much. This is explicitly stated in the text.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 8:58
Victim of CircumstanceVictim of Circumstance
2412
answered Dec 15 '18 at 8:58
Victim of CircumstanceVictim of Circumstance
2412
answered Dec 15 '18 at 8:58
Victim of CircumstanceVictim of Circumstance
2412
answered Dec 15 '18 at 8:58
Victim of CircumstanceVictim of Circumstance
2412
2412
2
Sauron seems to have ended up in the Void after becoming a greatly diminished spirit - apparently helped along by the wind from the west. He "walked behind him [Morgoth] on the same ruinous path down into the void.”
– Shamshiel
Dec 15 '18 at 15:01
Luthien threatened to kill him unless he withdrew, which he chose to do rather than suffer the inconvenience of a physical "death". It's never been clear to me if he was actually killed during the Downfall of Numenor, or if there was a voluntary withdrawal from his physical form (which may have been a state somewhere between "life" and "death").
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:16
Walking the same path doesn't imply the final destination was the same. Morgoth's Ring (Arda) was never destroyed; Sauron's was, so there was little need to banish the rest of him. (Besides, the metaphysics of opening the door into the Void were never described; perhaps the risk of Morgoth returning if the door were opened outweighed the risk of letting the mere shadow of Sauron remain in Middle Earth.)
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:18
2
You say This is explicitly stated in the text – in that case, do you think you could give a quote with a reference (ideally for all three “deaths”)? If you can, this answer will be worth my up-vote. Anyway, do you mean in The Lord of the Rings or some other text?
– PJTraill
Dec 16 '18 at 23:31
add a comment |
2
Sauron seems to have ended up in the Void after becoming a greatly diminished spirit - apparently helped along by the wind from the west. He "walked behind him [Morgoth] on the same ruinous path down into the void.”
– Shamshiel
Dec 15 '18 at 15:01
Luthien threatened to kill him unless he withdrew, which he chose to do rather than suffer the inconvenience of a physical "death". It's never been clear to me if he was actually killed during the Downfall of Numenor, or if there was a voluntary withdrawal from his physical form (which may have been a state somewhere between "life" and "death").
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:16
Walking the same path doesn't imply the final destination was the same. Morgoth's Ring (Arda) was never destroyed; Sauron's was, so there was little need to banish the rest of him. (Besides, the metaphysics of opening the door into the Void were never described; perhaps the risk of Morgoth returning if the door were opened outweighed the risk of letting the mere shadow of Sauron remain in Middle Earth.)
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:18
2
You say This is explicitly stated in the text – in that case, do you think you could give a quote with a reference (ideally for all three “deaths”)? If you can, this answer will be worth my up-vote. Anyway, do you mean in The Lord of the Rings or some other text?
– PJTraill
Dec 16 '18 at 23:31
2
2
Sauron seems to have ended up in the Void after becoming a greatly diminished spirit - apparently helped along by the wind from the west. He "walked behind him [Morgoth] on the same ruinous path down into the void.”
– Shamshiel
Dec 15 '18 at 15:01
Sauron seems to have ended up in the Void after becoming a greatly diminished spirit - apparently helped along by the wind from the west. He "walked behind him [Morgoth] on the same ruinous path down into the void.”
– Shamshiel
Dec 15 '18 at 15:01
Luthien threatened to kill him unless he withdrew, which he chose to do rather than suffer the inconvenience of a physical "death". It's never been clear to me if he was actually killed during the Downfall of Numenor, or if there was a voluntary withdrawal from his physical form (which may have been a state somewhere between "life" and "death").
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:16
Luthien threatened to kill him unless he withdrew, which he chose to do rather than suffer the inconvenience of a physical "death". It's never been clear to me if he was actually killed during the Downfall of Numenor, or if there was a voluntary withdrawal from his physical form (which may have been a state somewhere between "life" and "death").
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:16
Walking the same path doesn't imply the final destination was the same. Morgoth's Ring (Arda) was never destroyed; Sauron's was, so there was little need to banish the rest of him. (Besides, the metaphysics of opening the door into the Void were never described; perhaps the risk of Morgoth returning if the door were opened outweighed the risk of letting the mere shadow of Sauron remain in Middle Earth.)
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:18
Walking the same path doesn't imply the final destination was the same. Morgoth's Ring (Arda) was never destroyed; Sauron's was, so there was little need to banish the rest of him. (Besides, the metaphysics of opening the door into the Void were never described; perhaps the risk of Morgoth returning if the door were opened outweighed the risk of letting the mere shadow of Sauron remain in Middle Earth.)
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:18
2
2
You say This is explicitly stated in the text – in that case, do you think you could give a quote with a reference (ideally for all three “deaths”)? If you can, this answer will be worth my up-vote. Anyway, do you mean in The Lord of the Rings or some other text?
– PJTraill
Dec 16 '18 at 23:31
You say This is explicitly stated in the text – in that case, do you think you could give a quote with a reference (ideally for all three “deaths”)? If you can, this answer will be worth my up-vote. Anyway, do you mean in The Lord of the Rings or some other text?
– PJTraill
Dec 16 '18 at 23:31
add a comment |
It's stated quite clearly that Sauron put the greater part of his own essence into the ring, and although being away from the ring weakened him, it did not do so catastrophically; that part of his essence was still around to keep him strong enough for his purposes.
When the ring was destroyed, that part of his essence was either destroyed (or so it was assumed by everybody who knew about these things) or it was removed from the world entirely so that for all purposes within Arda, it may as well have been destroyed.
It's sort of like putting 90% of your money into the stock of a company. As long as the company is in good shape, for all intents and purposes you are still as rich as you were. But if the company goes bankrupt, such that the stock becomes worthless, then you truly plummet to 10% of your former net worth.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 5:01
EvilSnackEvilSnack
2,30469
I like the stock analogy.
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:19
add a comment |
It's stated quite clearly that Sauron put the greater part of his own essence into the ring, and although being away from the ring weakened him, it did not do so catastrophically; that part of his essence was still around to keep him strong enough for his purposes.
When the ring was destroyed, that part of his essence was either destroyed (or so it was assumed by everybody who knew about these things) or it was removed from the world entirely so that for all purposes within Arda, it may as well have been destroyed.
It's sort of like putting 90% of your money into the stock of a company. As long as the company is in good shape, for all intents and purposes you are still as rich as you were. But if the company goes bankrupt, such that the stock becomes worthless, then you truly plummet to 10% of your former net worth.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 5:01
EvilSnackEvilSnack
2,30469
I like the stock analogy.
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:19
add a comment |
It's stated quite clearly that Sauron put the greater part of his own essence into the ring, and although being away from the ring weakened him, it did not do so catastrophically; that part of his essence was still around to keep him strong enough for his purposes.
When the ring was destroyed, that part of his essence was either destroyed (or so it was assumed by everybody who knew about these things) or it was removed from the world entirely so that for all purposes within Arda, it may as well have been destroyed.
It's sort of like putting 90% of your money into the stock of a company. As long as the company is in good shape, for all intents and purposes you are still as rich as you were. But if the company goes bankrupt, such that the stock becomes worthless, then you truly plummet to 10% of your former net worth.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 5:01
EvilSnackEvilSnack
2,30469
It's stated quite clearly that Sauron put the greater part of his own essence into the ring, and although being away from the ring weakened him, it did not do so catastrophically; that part of his essence was still around to keep him strong enough for his purposes.
When the ring was destroyed, that part of his essence was either destroyed (or so it was assumed by everybody who knew about these things) or it was removed from the world entirely so that for all purposes within Arda, it may as well have been destroyed.
It's sort of like putting 90% of your money into the stock of a company. As long as the company is in good shape, for all intents and purposes you are still as rich as you were. But if the company goes bankrupt, such that the stock becomes worthless, then you truly plummet to 10% of your former net worth.
answered Dec 15 '18 at 5:01
EvilSnackEvilSnack
2,30469
answered Dec 15 '18 at 5:01
EvilSnackEvilSnack
2,30469
answered Dec 15 '18 at 5:01
EvilSnackEvilSnack
2,30469
answered Dec 15 '18 at 5:01
EvilSnackEvilSnack
2,30469
2,30469
I like the stock analogy.
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:19
add a comment |
I like the stock analogy.
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:19
I like the stock analogy.
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:19
I like the stock analogy.
– chepner
Dec 16 '18 at 18:19
add a comment |
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14
Not an answer because I'm just speculating, but this is how I've always seen it: Isildur killed Sauron's body, and the only reason Sauron survived that was his magic, which itself survived because it was imbued in the Ring. No More Ring meant No More Magic, which in turn meant No More Cheating Death.
– Harry Johnston
Dec 15 '18 at 4:29
1
Linked or possible dupe:scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/37670/…
– Mat Cauthon
Dec 15 '18 at 4:57
4
Did he die? I didn't think he did, just became so diminished in power that he couldn't do much anymore.
– jpmc26
Dec 16 '18 at 19:31
1
@jpmc26 I read where Tolkein said that exact thing
– Shawn V. Wilson
Dec 16 '18 at 22:38