Find $f,g$ s.t. $fcirc g=begin{pmatrix}1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 & 9...












2












$begingroup$



Let $f$ and $g$ be permutations such that



$$f circ f = id,$$



$$g circ g = id,$$



and



$$fcirc g =begin{pmatrix}
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 10 \
10 & 4 & 5 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 2 & 6 & 3 & 1
end{pmatrix}.$$



Find $f$ and $g$.




I can solve it by a lot of guess work, but I wonder if there is some general method.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:32










  • $begingroup$
    I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:43












  • $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:22
















2












$begingroup$



Let $f$ and $g$ be permutations such that



$$f circ f = id,$$



$$g circ g = id,$$



and



$$fcirc g =begin{pmatrix}
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 10 \
10 & 4 & 5 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 2 & 6 & 3 & 1
end{pmatrix}.$$



Find $f$ and $g$.




I can solve it by a lot of guess work, but I wonder if there is some general method.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:32










  • $begingroup$
    I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:43












  • $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:22














2












2








2





$begingroup$



Let $f$ and $g$ be permutations such that



$$f circ f = id,$$



$$g circ g = id,$$



and



$$fcirc g =begin{pmatrix}
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 10 \
10 & 4 & 5 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 2 & 6 & 3 & 1
end{pmatrix}.$$



Find $f$ and $g$.




I can solve it by a lot of guess work, but I wonder if there is some general method.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$





Let $f$ and $g$ be permutations such that



$$f circ f = id,$$



$$g circ g = id,$$



and



$$fcirc g =begin{pmatrix}
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 10 \
10 & 4 & 5 & 7 & 8 & 9 & 2 & 6 & 3 & 1
end{pmatrix}.$$



Find $f$ and $g$.




I can solve it by a lot of guess work, but I wonder if there is some general method.







group-theory permutations involutions






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Dec 11 '18 at 2:34









Shaun

9,241113684




9,241113684










asked Dec 9 '18 at 23:17









Quo Si ThanQuo Si Than

1467




1467








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:32










  • $begingroup$
    I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:43












  • $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:22














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:32










  • $begingroup$
    I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:43












  • $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:22








2




2




$begingroup$
When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
Dec 11 '18 at 1:32




$begingroup$
When I tried doing a quick program to find solutions by brute force, it seems to have found 30 solutions total.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
Dec 11 '18 at 1:32












$begingroup$
I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:43






$begingroup$
I suggest you accept answers to your previous questions also, especially one of the answers to this one.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:43














$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:22




$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler, your calculation agree with my solutions. As you can see from my answers the number of ways of choosing $f$ is $2times 3times 5=30$.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:22










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

A permutation $f$ is an involution if $fcirc f=id$.



As you know, any permutation can be written as a product of disjoint cycles; your permutation is $(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)$. In order to write an arbitrary permutation as a product of two involutions, it suffices (since disjoint permutations commute) to write a cycle of arbitrary length as a product of two involutions. A permutation is an involution if it's a product of disjoint cycles of length $2$. If you experiment a little with multiplying involutions, you might discover the following pattern:
$$(1 2)circ(2 3)=(1 2 3)tag3$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)=(1 2 4 3)tag4$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 5 3)tag5$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)(5 6)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 6 5 3)tag6$$
etc. So a cycle of any length can be obtained by multiplying two involutions. In particular, replacing $1,2,3$ by $2,4,7$ in $(3)$ we get
$$(2 4 7)=(2 4)circ(4 7);$$
replacing $1,2,4,5,3$ by $3,5,8,6,9$ in $(5)$ we get
$$(3 5 8 6 9)=(3 5)(9 8)circ(5 9)(8 6)=(3 5)(8 9)circ(5 9)(6 8);$$
and of course
$$(1 10)=(1 10)circ id;$$
so
$$(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9)circ(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$



I.e., you can take
$$f=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9), g=(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
Of course there are other solutions.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:58










  • $begingroup$
    @Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    Dec 11 '18 at 3:05










  • $begingroup$
    Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 3:08





















2












$begingroup$

There is a well-known algorithm for decomposing any given permutation as a product of (not necessarily disjoint) $2$-cycles/transpositions. Such a decomposition of a given $fcirc g$ would, in general, give strong hints about (if not completely determine) the nature of $f$ and $g$.



Why?



Because here $f,g$ are involutions: they square to the identity. Thus they're each (either trivial or) determined by a product of disjoint $2$-cycles (a.k.a. transpositions) (although they may share one or more of those cycles), which are themselves involutions.





See @bof's answer for the same approach, fleshed out.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:48










  • $begingroup$
    You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:51










  • $begingroup$
    Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:53












  • $begingroup$
    I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:16










  • $begingroup$
    It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:56



















2












$begingroup$

Here is how I did it. First write $fcirc g$ as a product of disjoint cycles. So here $fcirc g=(1, 10)(2,4,7)(3,5,8,6,9)$. Now



$$begin{align}
gcirc f &=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f \
&=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f^{-1} \
&=(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9)).
end{align}$$



On the other hand $(fcirc g)^{-1}=g^{-1}circ f^{-1}=gcirc f$. So from the provided $fcirc g$ we can invert it to get $gcirc f$ which is $$(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$



Therefore $$(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9))=(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$ and we can define $f$ to satisfy this (notice $f$ is not unique). After this you can find your $g$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 14:47










  • $begingroup$
    You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the @ thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 13 '18 at 4:25













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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2












$begingroup$

A permutation $f$ is an involution if $fcirc f=id$.



As you know, any permutation can be written as a product of disjoint cycles; your permutation is $(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)$. In order to write an arbitrary permutation as a product of two involutions, it suffices (since disjoint permutations commute) to write a cycle of arbitrary length as a product of two involutions. A permutation is an involution if it's a product of disjoint cycles of length $2$. If you experiment a little with multiplying involutions, you might discover the following pattern:
$$(1 2)circ(2 3)=(1 2 3)tag3$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)=(1 2 4 3)tag4$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 5 3)tag5$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)(5 6)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 6 5 3)tag6$$
etc. So a cycle of any length can be obtained by multiplying two involutions. In particular, replacing $1,2,3$ by $2,4,7$ in $(3)$ we get
$$(2 4 7)=(2 4)circ(4 7);$$
replacing $1,2,4,5,3$ by $3,5,8,6,9$ in $(5)$ we get
$$(3 5 8 6 9)=(3 5)(9 8)circ(5 9)(8 6)=(3 5)(8 9)circ(5 9)(6 8);$$
and of course
$$(1 10)=(1 10)circ id;$$
so
$$(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9)circ(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$



I.e., you can take
$$f=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9), g=(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
Of course there are other solutions.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:58










  • $begingroup$
    @Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    Dec 11 '18 at 3:05










  • $begingroup$
    Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 3:08


















2












$begingroup$

A permutation $f$ is an involution if $fcirc f=id$.



As you know, any permutation can be written as a product of disjoint cycles; your permutation is $(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)$. In order to write an arbitrary permutation as a product of two involutions, it suffices (since disjoint permutations commute) to write a cycle of arbitrary length as a product of two involutions. A permutation is an involution if it's a product of disjoint cycles of length $2$. If you experiment a little with multiplying involutions, you might discover the following pattern:
$$(1 2)circ(2 3)=(1 2 3)tag3$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)=(1 2 4 3)tag4$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 5 3)tag5$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)(5 6)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 6 5 3)tag6$$
etc. So a cycle of any length can be obtained by multiplying two involutions. In particular, replacing $1,2,3$ by $2,4,7$ in $(3)$ we get
$$(2 4 7)=(2 4)circ(4 7);$$
replacing $1,2,4,5,3$ by $3,5,8,6,9$ in $(5)$ we get
$$(3 5 8 6 9)=(3 5)(9 8)circ(5 9)(8 6)=(3 5)(8 9)circ(5 9)(6 8);$$
and of course
$$(1 10)=(1 10)circ id;$$
so
$$(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9)circ(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$



I.e., you can take
$$f=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9), g=(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
Of course there are other solutions.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:58










  • $begingroup$
    @Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    Dec 11 '18 at 3:05










  • $begingroup$
    Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 3:08
















2












2








2





$begingroup$

A permutation $f$ is an involution if $fcirc f=id$.



As you know, any permutation can be written as a product of disjoint cycles; your permutation is $(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)$. In order to write an arbitrary permutation as a product of two involutions, it suffices (since disjoint permutations commute) to write a cycle of arbitrary length as a product of two involutions. A permutation is an involution if it's a product of disjoint cycles of length $2$. If you experiment a little with multiplying involutions, you might discover the following pattern:
$$(1 2)circ(2 3)=(1 2 3)tag3$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)=(1 2 4 3)tag4$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 5 3)tag5$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)(5 6)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 6 5 3)tag6$$
etc. So a cycle of any length can be obtained by multiplying two involutions. In particular, replacing $1,2,3$ by $2,4,7$ in $(3)$ we get
$$(2 4 7)=(2 4)circ(4 7);$$
replacing $1,2,4,5,3$ by $3,5,8,6,9$ in $(5)$ we get
$$(3 5 8 6 9)=(3 5)(9 8)circ(5 9)(8 6)=(3 5)(8 9)circ(5 9)(6 8);$$
and of course
$$(1 10)=(1 10)circ id;$$
so
$$(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9)circ(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$



I.e., you can take
$$f=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9), g=(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
Of course there are other solutions.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



A permutation $f$ is an involution if $fcirc f=id$.



As you know, any permutation can be written as a product of disjoint cycles; your permutation is $(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)$. In order to write an arbitrary permutation as a product of two involutions, it suffices (since disjoint permutations commute) to write a cycle of arbitrary length as a product of two involutions. A permutation is an involution if it's a product of disjoint cycles of length $2$. If you experiment a little with multiplying involutions, you might discover the following pattern:
$$(1 2)circ(2 3)=(1 2 3)tag3$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)=(1 2 4 3)tag4$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 5 3)tag5$$
$$(1 2)(3 4)(5 6)circ(2 3)(4 5)=(1 2 4 6 5 3)tag6$$
etc. So a cycle of any length can be obtained by multiplying two involutions. In particular, replacing $1,2,3$ by $2,4,7$ in $(3)$ we get
$$(2 4 7)=(2 4)circ(4 7);$$
replacing $1,2,4,5,3$ by $3,5,8,6,9$ in $(5)$ we get
$$(3 5 8 6 9)=(3 5)(9 8)circ(5 9)(8 6)=(3 5)(8 9)circ(5 9)(6 8);$$
and of course
$$(1 10)=(1 10)circ id;$$
so
$$(1 10)(2 4 7)(3 5 8 6 9)=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9)circ(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$



I.e., you can take
$$f=(1 10)(2 4)(3 5)(8 9), g=(4 7)(5 9)(6 8).$$
Of course there are other solutions.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Dec 11 '18 at 2:20









bofbof

51.9k558121




51.9k558121












  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:58










  • $begingroup$
    @Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    Dec 11 '18 at 3:05










  • $begingroup$
    Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 3:08




















  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:58










  • $begingroup$
    @Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    Dec 11 '18 at 3:05










  • $begingroup$
    Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 3:08


















$begingroup$
Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:58




$begingroup$
Your answer is essentially what I had in mind, @bof. Do you agree?
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:58












$begingroup$
@Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 11 '18 at 3:05




$begingroup$
@Shaun I don't know what you had in mind, but I'll take your word for it. By the way, I thought an "idempotent" was an element $a$ satisfying $a^2=a$. So in a group the only idempotent is the identity element.
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 11 '18 at 3:05












$begingroup$
Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 3:08






$begingroup$
Thank you, @bof; and you're right: I meant involution of course. Here in England, it was late when I first wrote the answer and late when I came back to it. That's my excuse, anyway.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 3:08













2












$begingroup$

There is a well-known algorithm for decomposing any given permutation as a product of (not necessarily disjoint) $2$-cycles/transpositions. Such a decomposition of a given $fcirc g$ would, in general, give strong hints about (if not completely determine) the nature of $f$ and $g$.



Why?



Because here $f,g$ are involutions: they square to the identity. Thus they're each (either trivial or) determined by a product of disjoint $2$-cycles (a.k.a. transpositions) (although they may share one or more of those cycles), which are themselves involutions.





See @bof's answer for the same approach, fleshed out.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:48










  • $begingroup$
    You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:51










  • $begingroup$
    Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:53












  • $begingroup$
    I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:16










  • $begingroup$
    It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:56
















2












$begingroup$

There is a well-known algorithm for decomposing any given permutation as a product of (not necessarily disjoint) $2$-cycles/transpositions. Such a decomposition of a given $fcirc g$ would, in general, give strong hints about (if not completely determine) the nature of $f$ and $g$.



Why?



Because here $f,g$ are involutions: they square to the identity. Thus they're each (either trivial or) determined by a product of disjoint $2$-cycles (a.k.a. transpositions) (although they may share one or more of those cycles), which are themselves involutions.





See @bof's answer for the same approach, fleshed out.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:48










  • $begingroup$
    You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:51










  • $begingroup$
    Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:53












  • $begingroup$
    I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:16










  • $begingroup$
    It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:56














2












2








2





$begingroup$

There is a well-known algorithm for decomposing any given permutation as a product of (not necessarily disjoint) $2$-cycles/transpositions. Such a decomposition of a given $fcirc g$ would, in general, give strong hints about (if not completely determine) the nature of $f$ and $g$.



Why?



Because here $f,g$ are involutions: they square to the identity. Thus they're each (either trivial or) determined by a product of disjoint $2$-cycles (a.k.a. transpositions) (although they may share one or more of those cycles), which are themselves involutions.





See @bof's answer for the same approach, fleshed out.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



There is a well-known algorithm for decomposing any given permutation as a product of (not necessarily disjoint) $2$-cycles/transpositions. Such a decomposition of a given $fcirc g$ would, in general, give strong hints about (if not completely determine) the nature of $f$ and $g$.



Why?



Because here $f,g$ are involutions: they square to the identity. Thus they're each (either trivial or) determined by a product of disjoint $2$-cycles (a.k.a. transpositions) (although they may share one or more of those cycles), which are themselves involutions.





See @bof's answer for the same approach, fleshed out.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Dec 11 '18 at 3:10

























answered Dec 10 '18 at 5:36









ShaunShaun

9,241113684




9,241113684








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:48










  • $begingroup$
    You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:51










  • $begingroup$
    Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:53












  • $begingroup$
    I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:16










  • $begingroup$
    It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:56














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:48










  • $begingroup$
    You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:51










  • $begingroup$
    Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 1:53












  • $begingroup$
    I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:16










  • $begingroup$
    It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 11 '18 at 2:56








1




1




$begingroup$
Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 1:48




$begingroup$
Well what you are saying is true. But here apart from $f$ and $g$ are idempotent we don't know yet what they are. So we can not apply the algorithm to decompose $f$ and $g$ into transpositions. So I don't see how the algorithm help you in this problem.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 1:48












$begingroup$
You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:51




$begingroup$
You're right, @user9077; thank you. The order of the paragraphs is backward (modulo some minor editing). Give me a minute . . .
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:51












$begingroup$
Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:53






$begingroup$
Is it okay now, @user9077? (For reference: Here's how it used to look.)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 1:53














$begingroup$
I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:16




$begingroup$
I am not sure Shaun. Just give it a try if you can solve this particular problem using the idea that you have in your mind.
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 2:16












$begingroup$
It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:56




$begingroup$
It's essentially bof's answer, @user9077.
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 11 '18 at 2:56











2












$begingroup$

Here is how I did it. First write $fcirc g$ as a product of disjoint cycles. So here $fcirc g=(1, 10)(2,4,7)(3,5,8,6,9)$. Now



$$begin{align}
gcirc f &=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f \
&=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f^{-1} \
&=(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9)).
end{align}$$



On the other hand $(fcirc g)^{-1}=g^{-1}circ f^{-1}=gcirc f$. So from the provided $fcirc g$ we can invert it to get $gcirc f$ which is $$(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$



Therefore $$(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9))=(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$ and we can define $f$ to satisfy this (notice $f$ is not unique). After this you can find your $g$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 14:47










  • $begingroup$
    You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the @ thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 13 '18 at 4:25


















2












$begingroup$

Here is how I did it. First write $fcirc g$ as a product of disjoint cycles. So here $fcirc g=(1, 10)(2,4,7)(3,5,8,6,9)$. Now



$$begin{align}
gcirc f &=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f \
&=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f^{-1} \
&=(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9)).
end{align}$$



On the other hand $(fcirc g)^{-1}=g^{-1}circ f^{-1}=gcirc f$. So from the provided $fcirc g$ we can invert it to get $gcirc f$ which is $$(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$



Therefore $$(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9))=(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$ and we can define $f$ to satisfy this (notice $f$ is not unique). After this you can find your $g$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 14:47










  • $begingroup$
    You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the @ thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 13 '18 at 4:25
















2












2








2





$begingroup$

Here is how I did it. First write $fcirc g$ as a product of disjoint cycles. So here $fcirc g=(1, 10)(2,4,7)(3,5,8,6,9)$. Now



$$begin{align}
gcirc f &=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f \
&=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f^{-1} \
&=(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9)).
end{align}$$



On the other hand $(fcirc g)^{-1}=g^{-1}circ f^{-1}=gcirc f$. So from the provided $fcirc g$ we can invert it to get $gcirc f$ which is $$(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$



Therefore $$(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9))=(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$ and we can define $f$ to satisfy this (notice $f$ is not unique). After this you can find your $g$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Here is how I did it. First write $fcirc g$ as a product of disjoint cycles. So here $fcirc g=(1, 10)(2,4,7)(3,5,8,6,9)$. Now



$$begin{align}
gcirc f &=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f \
&=fcirc(fcirc g)circ f^{-1} \
&=(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9)).
end{align}$$



On the other hand $(fcirc g)^{-1}=g^{-1}circ f^{-1}=gcirc f$. So from the provided $fcirc g$ we can invert it to get $gcirc f$ which is $$(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$



Therefore $$(f(1),f(10))(f(2), f(4),f(7))(f(3),f(5),f(8),f(6),f(9))=(1,10)(2,7,4)(3,9,6,8,5)$$ and we can define $f$ to satisfy this (notice $f$ is not unique). After this you can find your $g$.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Dec 11 '18 at 6:08









Shaun

9,241113684




9,241113684










answered Dec 11 '18 at 2:10









user9077user9077

1,239612




1,239612












  • $begingroup$
    Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 14:47










  • $begingroup$
    You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the @ thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 13 '18 at 4:25




















  • $begingroup$
    Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
    $endgroup$
    – user9077
    Dec 11 '18 at 14:47










  • $begingroup$
    You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the @ thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
    $endgroup$
    – Shaun
    Dec 13 '18 at 4:25


















$begingroup$
Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 14:47




$begingroup$
Thanks for the edit Shaun. Do you happen to know my friend Hadi Susanto? :D
$endgroup$
– user9077
Dec 11 '18 at 14:47












$begingroup$
You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the @ thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 13 '18 at 4:25






$begingroup$
You're welcome, @user9077. I believe he and I had a brief conversation last year, yeah; I don't know if he remembers it though. He seems friendly. By the way, I nearly missed your comment as you didn't use the @ thing (like I did in this comment with your username). Please be sure to use it in future :)
$endgroup$
– Shaun
Dec 13 '18 at 4:25




















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