What is a simple method of combining an infinite (or finite) set of well-orders into one well-order?












1












$begingroup$


Let $$W = {W_1, W_2, W_3, ldots}$$ denote an infinite (or finite) set of well-orders on $mathbb{N}$ and $alpha_i$ is an ordinal (order type) that corresponds to $W_i$, assuming that $alpha_1 ge omega$ and $alpha_{i+1} > alpha_i$ for all $i$. Note that $alpha_i$ can be non-recursive for any $i ge 1$.



All I want is a simple (and easy to understand) method to define a well-order $W_0$ that contains all elements of $W$. Is it possible?



I was thinking about combining unary (where $0 = 1, 1 = 11, 2 = 111$ etc.) and binary encodings of natural numbers, which allows appending $i$ zero bits to the unary encoding of a corresponding number. For example, if $W_4$ implies that $5 prec 3$, then in $W_0$, we will have $$1111110000_2 prec 11110000_2,$$ so $1008 prec 240$ because $$5 = 111111, 3 = 1111$$ in unary encoding and we need to append $i=4$ zero bits to both of them.



To find a number that corresponds to the order type of $W_i$, we simply write $i$ consecutive $1$ bits and then interpret it as a binary encoding of a natural number. Then in $W_0$, we will have $$1 prec 3 prec 7 prec 15 prec ldots,$$ where $1 = 1_2$ is the order type of $W_1$, $3 = 11_2$ is the order type of $W_2$, $7 = 111_2$ is the order type of $W_3$ etc.



Then in $W_0$, we will have $x prec 0$ if the binary representation of a natural number $x$ is a sequence of one or more $1$ bits followed by a sequence of zero or more $0$ bits. The number $0$ corresponds to an ordinal $alpha_0$.



Then consider a set of natural numbers (where each number is greater than $0$) where the binary representation of each element is not written as a sequence of one or more $1$ bits followed by a sequence of zero or more $0$ bits: $${5 = 101_2, 9 = 1001_2, 10 = 1010_2, ldots }$$



We define that a $j$-th element of this set (where $j ge 1$ ) corresponds to an ordinal $alpha_0 + j$. This allows to have a well-order $W_0$ that has the order type $alpha_0 + omega$.



Is this method mathematically correct? If no, then how can I solve this problem (if it’s possible)?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    1












    $begingroup$


    Let $$W = {W_1, W_2, W_3, ldots}$$ denote an infinite (or finite) set of well-orders on $mathbb{N}$ and $alpha_i$ is an ordinal (order type) that corresponds to $W_i$, assuming that $alpha_1 ge omega$ and $alpha_{i+1} > alpha_i$ for all $i$. Note that $alpha_i$ can be non-recursive for any $i ge 1$.



    All I want is a simple (and easy to understand) method to define a well-order $W_0$ that contains all elements of $W$. Is it possible?



    I was thinking about combining unary (where $0 = 1, 1 = 11, 2 = 111$ etc.) and binary encodings of natural numbers, which allows appending $i$ zero bits to the unary encoding of a corresponding number. For example, if $W_4$ implies that $5 prec 3$, then in $W_0$, we will have $$1111110000_2 prec 11110000_2,$$ so $1008 prec 240$ because $$5 = 111111, 3 = 1111$$ in unary encoding and we need to append $i=4$ zero bits to both of them.



    To find a number that corresponds to the order type of $W_i$, we simply write $i$ consecutive $1$ bits and then interpret it as a binary encoding of a natural number. Then in $W_0$, we will have $$1 prec 3 prec 7 prec 15 prec ldots,$$ where $1 = 1_2$ is the order type of $W_1$, $3 = 11_2$ is the order type of $W_2$, $7 = 111_2$ is the order type of $W_3$ etc.



    Then in $W_0$, we will have $x prec 0$ if the binary representation of a natural number $x$ is a sequence of one or more $1$ bits followed by a sequence of zero or more $0$ bits. The number $0$ corresponds to an ordinal $alpha_0$.



    Then consider a set of natural numbers (where each number is greater than $0$) where the binary representation of each element is not written as a sequence of one or more $1$ bits followed by a sequence of zero or more $0$ bits: $${5 = 101_2, 9 = 1001_2, 10 = 1010_2, ldots }$$



    We define that a $j$-th element of this set (where $j ge 1$ ) corresponds to an ordinal $alpha_0 + j$. This allows to have a well-order $W_0$ that has the order type $alpha_0 + omega$.



    Is this method mathematically correct? If no, then how can I solve this problem (if it’s possible)?










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      1












      1








      1





      $begingroup$


      Let $$W = {W_1, W_2, W_3, ldots}$$ denote an infinite (or finite) set of well-orders on $mathbb{N}$ and $alpha_i$ is an ordinal (order type) that corresponds to $W_i$, assuming that $alpha_1 ge omega$ and $alpha_{i+1} > alpha_i$ for all $i$. Note that $alpha_i$ can be non-recursive for any $i ge 1$.



      All I want is a simple (and easy to understand) method to define a well-order $W_0$ that contains all elements of $W$. Is it possible?



      I was thinking about combining unary (where $0 = 1, 1 = 11, 2 = 111$ etc.) and binary encodings of natural numbers, which allows appending $i$ zero bits to the unary encoding of a corresponding number. For example, if $W_4$ implies that $5 prec 3$, then in $W_0$, we will have $$1111110000_2 prec 11110000_2,$$ so $1008 prec 240$ because $$5 = 111111, 3 = 1111$$ in unary encoding and we need to append $i=4$ zero bits to both of them.



      To find a number that corresponds to the order type of $W_i$, we simply write $i$ consecutive $1$ bits and then interpret it as a binary encoding of a natural number. Then in $W_0$, we will have $$1 prec 3 prec 7 prec 15 prec ldots,$$ where $1 = 1_2$ is the order type of $W_1$, $3 = 11_2$ is the order type of $W_2$, $7 = 111_2$ is the order type of $W_3$ etc.



      Then in $W_0$, we will have $x prec 0$ if the binary representation of a natural number $x$ is a sequence of one or more $1$ bits followed by a sequence of zero or more $0$ bits. The number $0$ corresponds to an ordinal $alpha_0$.



      Then consider a set of natural numbers (where each number is greater than $0$) where the binary representation of each element is not written as a sequence of one or more $1$ bits followed by a sequence of zero or more $0$ bits: $${5 = 101_2, 9 = 1001_2, 10 = 1010_2, ldots }$$



      We define that a $j$-th element of this set (where $j ge 1$ ) corresponds to an ordinal $alpha_0 + j$. This allows to have a well-order $W_0$ that has the order type $alpha_0 + omega$.



      Is this method mathematically correct? If no, then how can I solve this problem (if it’s possible)?










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Let $$W = {W_1, W_2, W_3, ldots}$$ denote an infinite (or finite) set of well-orders on $mathbb{N}$ and $alpha_i$ is an ordinal (order type) that corresponds to $W_i$, assuming that $alpha_1 ge omega$ and $alpha_{i+1} > alpha_i$ for all $i$. Note that $alpha_i$ can be non-recursive for any $i ge 1$.



      All I want is a simple (and easy to understand) method to define a well-order $W_0$ that contains all elements of $W$. Is it possible?



      I was thinking about combining unary (where $0 = 1, 1 = 11, 2 = 111$ etc.) and binary encodings of natural numbers, which allows appending $i$ zero bits to the unary encoding of a corresponding number. For example, if $W_4$ implies that $5 prec 3$, then in $W_0$, we will have $$1111110000_2 prec 11110000_2,$$ so $1008 prec 240$ because $$5 = 111111, 3 = 1111$$ in unary encoding and we need to append $i=4$ zero bits to both of them.



      To find a number that corresponds to the order type of $W_i$, we simply write $i$ consecutive $1$ bits and then interpret it as a binary encoding of a natural number. Then in $W_0$, we will have $$1 prec 3 prec 7 prec 15 prec ldots,$$ where $1 = 1_2$ is the order type of $W_1$, $3 = 11_2$ is the order type of $W_2$, $7 = 111_2$ is the order type of $W_3$ etc.



      Then in $W_0$, we will have $x prec 0$ if the binary representation of a natural number $x$ is a sequence of one or more $1$ bits followed by a sequence of zero or more $0$ bits. The number $0$ corresponds to an ordinal $alpha_0$.



      Then consider a set of natural numbers (where each number is greater than $0$) where the binary representation of each element is not written as a sequence of one or more $1$ bits followed by a sequence of zero or more $0$ bits: $${5 = 101_2, 9 = 1001_2, 10 = 1010_2, ldots }$$



      We define that a $j$-th element of this set (where $j ge 1$ ) corresponds to an ordinal $alpha_0 + j$. This allows to have a well-order $W_0$ that has the order type $alpha_0 + omega$.



      Is this method mathematically correct? If no, then how can I solve this problem (if it’s possible)?







      ordinals well-orders






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      share|cite|improve this question













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      edited Dec 19 '18 at 9:26







      lyrically wicked

















      asked Dec 19 '18 at 6:35









      lyrically wickedlyrically wicked

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      20818






















          1 Answer
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          $begingroup$

          I didn't fully understand your question, but based on reading the first two paragraphs of your question, I assume that what I write below is what you meant? If it isn't, then let me know so I can delete the answer.



          First of all, when you say "well-order", implicitly or explicitly we are talking about well-order of/on some set. If the context is very clear, this is omitted sometimes for brevity (I will do the same below). I am guessing (given your post) here that you are talking about well-orders on $mathbb{N}$ here.



          As I understood your questions, you are saying that if we are given well-orders relations for well-orders of order-type $alpha_0,alpha_1,alpha_2,...,alpha_i,...$ is there a fixed way to combine them so we can get a well-order relation of order-type $beta=mathrm{sup}{,alpha_i,|,iin mathbb{N}}$.Yes there is, and it is fairly direct and straight-forward. But if this is not what you were asking then do mention it in comments so I can delete the answer.



          Well here it is. Let $lessthan_i:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ denote the well-order relations for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha_i$. From these functions, we define a new function $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ which serves as well-order relation for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$. For the sake of simplicity, I will assume that $beta$ is of the form $omega^x$(for some $x<omega_1$), so simply taking the sum of $alpha_i$'s gives us $beta$.



          As usual, assume that we have pairing encoding function from $mathbb{N}^2$ to $mathbb{N}$ (any valid pairing function whatsoever will do). So $<x,y>$ denotes the result of applying such a function on $x,y in mathbb{N}$. Similarly, we have functions $H:mathbb{N} rightarrow mathbb{N}$ and $V:mathbb{N} rightarrow mathbb{N}$ which extract the first and second element in the pairing respectively. So, for example, we have the identities $H(<x,y>)=x$ and $V(<x,y>)=y$.



          Now we define the function $lessthan(x,y)$ by dividing into sub-cases (note that there are more than one ways to do it correctly):



          (a) $H(x)>H(y)$



          Define $lessthan(x,y)=0$.



          (b) $H(x)<H(y)$



          Define $lessthan(x,y)=1$.



          (c) $H(x)=H(y)$



          This is the more interesting case. Denote $i=H(y)=H(x)$. Just return:
          $lessthan(x,y)=lessthan_i(V(x),V(y))$



          The above cases complete the required description. A careful look will show that this indeed represents a well-order relation for $beta$. (Edit: note that this is also bit of a "shortcut" phrase to avoid being too repetitive. For example, a more formal phrasing for the last sentence before the edit would be:"A careful look will show that this indeed represents a well-order relation for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$")





          I suppose if the construction above is the very first time you have seen it, then it might look a bit complicated. I am adding one very elementary example, so it is easier to get the hang of it.



          Suppose we are given a well-order (of $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha$. Let the corresponding well-order relation be $lessthan_1:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$. We want to construct a function $lessthan_2:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ which can serve as a well-order relation for a well-order (of $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha+omega$.



          Here is one such function. We again divide into sub-cases:



          (a) $x$ and $y$ are both odd



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=lessthan_1((x-1)/2,(y-1)/2)$



          (b) $x$ and $y$ are both even



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=$ return truth value of $x<y$



          (c) $x$ is odd and $y$ is even



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=1$



          (d) $x$ is even and $y$ is odd



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=0$






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            What I don't understand is how exactly a function $lessthan$ can be defined from $lessthan_i$, and how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$.
            $endgroup$
            – lyrically wicked
            Dec 19 '18 at 8:38










          • $begingroup$
            @lyricallywicked Well I just described $lessthan$ explicitly in terms of $lessthan_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$). The functions $H$ and $V$ are well-defined (and actually one would normally just choose them so that they are computable or even p.r.). Given two argument $x,y in mathbb{N}$ to the function $lessthan$, you just compare $H(x)$ with $H(y)$ and then calculate the value $lessthan(x,y)$ based on which case the comparison falls into.
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:10












          • $begingroup$
            Also, I am not particularly conversant with the formal terminology here, but essentially a well-order is defined by the combination of: (i) the set which is being well-ordered (ii) the well-order relation. The set that is being well-ordered here is $mathbb{N}$ and the well-order relation (which is $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$) with order-type $beta$ we defined precisely. So these two should be enough to define the required well-order. But admittedly, I don't know how it is written in a fully formal way normally (as I mentioned I am not conversant with formal terminology).
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:19












          • $begingroup$
            For example, when you wrote in comment above "how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$." ...... then, strictly speaking, the phrase "how exactly a well-order $beta$" isn't quite right I think. Because a specific well-order (on $mathbb{N}$ or any other set for that matter), will have some ordinal as an order-type. I think it might be better to say: "how exactly a well-order (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$ can be defined from well-orders (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-types $alpha_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$)"
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:35












          • $begingroup$
            When I wrote: "Because a specific well-order (on N or any other set for that matter)" above, it should have been "any other set that can be well-ordered" (which is true for all sets in ZFC). Hopefully the above comments help in clearing up a few things at least.
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:42













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          $begingroup$

          I didn't fully understand your question, but based on reading the first two paragraphs of your question, I assume that what I write below is what you meant? If it isn't, then let me know so I can delete the answer.



          First of all, when you say "well-order", implicitly or explicitly we are talking about well-order of/on some set. If the context is very clear, this is omitted sometimes for brevity (I will do the same below). I am guessing (given your post) here that you are talking about well-orders on $mathbb{N}$ here.



          As I understood your questions, you are saying that if we are given well-orders relations for well-orders of order-type $alpha_0,alpha_1,alpha_2,...,alpha_i,...$ is there a fixed way to combine them so we can get a well-order relation of order-type $beta=mathrm{sup}{,alpha_i,|,iin mathbb{N}}$.Yes there is, and it is fairly direct and straight-forward. But if this is not what you were asking then do mention it in comments so I can delete the answer.



          Well here it is. Let $lessthan_i:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ denote the well-order relations for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha_i$. From these functions, we define a new function $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ which serves as well-order relation for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$. For the sake of simplicity, I will assume that $beta$ is of the form $omega^x$(for some $x<omega_1$), so simply taking the sum of $alpha_i$'s gives us $beta$.



          As usual, assume that we have pairing encoding function from $mathbb{N}^2$ to $mathbb{N}$ (any valid pairing function whatsoever will do). So $<x,y>$ denotes the result of applying such a function on $x,y in mathbb{N}$. Similarly, we have functions $H:mathbb{N} rightarrow mathbb{N}$ and $V:mathbb{N} rightarrow mathbb{N}$ which extract the first and second element in the pairing respectively. So, for example, we have the identities $H(<x,y>)=x$ and $V(<x,y>)=y$.



          Now we define the function $lessthan(x,y)$ by dividing into sub-cases (note that there are more than one ways to do it correctly):



          (a) $H(x)>H(y)$



          Define $lessthan(x,y)=0$.



          (b) $H(x)<H(y)$



          Define $lessthan(x,y)=1$.



          (c) $H(x)=H(y)$



          This is the more interesting case. Denote $i=H(y)=H(x)$. Just return:
          $lessthan(x,y)=lessthan_i(V(x),V(y))$



          The above cases complete the required description. A careful look will show that this indeed represents a well-order relation for $beta$. (Edit: note that this is also bit of a "shortcut" phrase to avoid being too repetitive. For example, a more formal phrasing for the last sentence before the edit would be:"A careful look will show that this indeed represents a well-order relation for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$")





          I suppose if the construction above is the very first time you have seen it, then it might look a bit complicated. I am adding one very elementary example, so it is easier to get the hang of it.



          Suppose we are given a well-order (of $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha$. Let the corresponding well-order relation be $lessthan_1:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$. We want to construct a function $lessthan_2:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ which can serve as a well-order relation for a well-order (of $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha+omega$.



          Here is one such function. We again divide into sub-cases:



          (a) $x$ and $y$ are both odd



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=lessthan_1((x-1)/2,(y-1)/2)$



          (b) $x$ and $y$ are both even



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=$ return truth value of $x<y$



          (c) $x$ is odd and $y$ is even



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=1$



          (d) $x$ is even and $y$ is odd



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=0$






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            What I don't understand is how exactly a function $lessthan$ can be defined from $lessthan_i$, and how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$.
            $endgroup$
            – lyrically wicked
            Dec 19 '18 at 8:38










          • $begingroup$
            @lyricallywicked Well I just described $lessthan$ explicitly in terms of $lessthan_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$). The functions $H$ and $V$ are well-defined (and actually one would normally just choose them so that they are computable or even p.r.). Given two argument $x,y in mathbb{N}$ to the function $lessthan$, you just compare $H(x)$ with $H(y)$ and then calculate the value $lessthan(x,y)$ based on which case the comparison falls into.
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:10












          • $begingroup$
            Also, I am not particularly conversant with the formal terminology here, but essentially a well-order is defined by the combination of: (i) the set which is being well-ordered (ii) the well-order relation. The set that is being well-ordered here is $mathbb{N}$ and the well-order relation (which is $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$) with order-type $beta$ we defined precisely. So these two should be enough to define the required well-order. But admittedly, I don't know how it is written in a fully formal way normally (as I mentioned I am not conversant with formal terminology).
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:19












          • $begingroup$
            For example, when you wrote in comment above "how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$." ...... then, strictly speaking, the phrase "how exactly a well-order $beta$" isn't quite right I think. Because a specific well-order (on $mathbb{N}$ or any other set for that matter), will have some ordinal as an order-type. I think it might be better to say: "how exactly a well-order (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$ can be defined from well-orders (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-types $alpha_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$)"
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:35












          • $begingroup$
            When I wrote: "Because a specific well-order (on N or any other set for that matter)" above, it should have been "any other set that can be well-ordered" (which is true for all sets in ZFC). Hopefully the above comments help in clearing up a few things at least.
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:42


















          1












          $begingroup$

          I didn't fully understand your question, but based on reading the first two paragraphs of your question, I assume that what I write below is what you meant? If it isn't, then let me know so I can delete the answer.



          First of all, when you say "well-order", implicitly or explicitly we are talking about well-order of/on some set. If the context is very clear, this is omitted sometimes for brevity (I will do the same below). I am guessing (given your post) here that you are talking about well-orders on $mathbb{N}$ here.



          As I understood your questions, you are saying that if we are given well-orders relations for well-orders of order-type $alpha_0,alpha_1,alpha_2,...,alpha_i,...$ is there a fixed way to combine them so we can get a well-order relation of order-type $beta=mathrm{sup}{,alpha_i,|,iin mathbb{N}}$.Yes there is, and it is fairly direct and straight-forward. But if this is not what you were asking then do mention it in comments so I can delete the answer.



          Well here it is. Let $lessthan_i:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ denote the well-order relations for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha_i$. From these functions, we define a new function $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ which serves as well-order relation for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$. For the sake of simplicity, I will assume that $beta$ is of the form $omega^x$(for some $x<omega_1$), so simply taking the sum of $alpha_i$'s gives us $beta$.



          As usual, assume that we have pairing encoding function from $mathbb{N}^2$ to $mathbb{N}$ (any valid pairing function whatsoever will do). So $<x,y>$ denotes the result of applying such a function on $x,y in mathbb{N}$. Similarly, we have functions $H:mathbb{N} rightarrow mathbb{N}$ and $V:mathbb{N} rightarrow mathbb{N}$ which extract the first and second element in the pairing respectively. So, for example, we have the identities $H(<x,y>)=x$ and $V(<x,y>)=y$.



          Now we define the function $lessthan(x,y)$ by dividing into sub-cases (note that there are more than one ways to do it correctly):



          (a) $H(x)>H(y)$



          Define $lessthan(x,y)=0$.



          (b) $H(x)<H(y)$



          Define $lessthan(x,y)=1$.



          (c) $H(x)=H(y)$



          This is the more interesting case. Denote $i=H(y)=H(x)$. Just return:
          $lessthan(x,y)=lessthan_i(V(x),V(y))$



          The above cases complete the required description. A careful look will show that this indeed represents a well-order relation for $beta$. (Edit: note that this is also bit of a "shortcut" phrase to avoid being too repetitive. For example, a more formal phrasing for the last sentence before the edit would be:"A careful look will show that this indeed represents a well-order relation for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$")





          I suppose if the construction above is the very first time you have seen it, then it might look a bit complicated. I am adding one very elementary example, so it is easier to get the hang of it.



          Suppose we are given a well-order (of $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha$. Let the corresponding well-order relation be $lessthan_1:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$. We want to construct a function $lessthan_2:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ which can serve as a well-order relation for a well-order (of $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha+omega$.



          Here is one such function. We again divide into sub-cases:



          (a) $x$ and $y$ are both odd



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=lessthan_1((x-1)/2,(y-1)/2)$



          (b) $x$ and $y$ are both even



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=$ return truth value of $x<y$



          (c) $x$ is odd and $y$ is even



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=1$



          (d) $x$ is even and $y$ is odd



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=0$






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            What I don't understand is how exactly a function $lessthan$ can be defined from $lessthan_i$, and how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$.
            $endgroup$
            – lyrically wicked
            Dec 19 '18 at 8:38










          • $begingroup$
            @lyricallywicked Well I just described $lessthan$ explicitly in terms of $lessthan_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$). The functions $H$ and $V$ are well-defined (and actually one would normally just choose them so that they are computable or even p.r.). Given two argument $x,y in mathbb{N}$ to the function $lessthan$, you just compare $H(x)$ with $H(y)$ and then calculate the value $lessthan(x,y)$ based on which case the comparison falls into.
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:10












          • $begingroup$
            Also, I am not particularly conversant with the formal terminology here, but essentially a well-order is defined by the combination of: (i) the set which is being well-ordered (ii) the well-order relation. The set that is being well-ordered here is $mathbb{N}$ and the well-order relation (which is $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$) with order-type $beta$ we defined precisely. So these two should be enough to define the required well-order. But admittedly, I don't know how it is written in a fully formal way normally (as I mentioned I am not conversant with formal terminology).
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:19












          • $begingroup$
            For example, when you wrote in comment above "how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$." ...... then, strictly speaking, the phrase "how exactly a well-order $beta$" isn't quite right I think. Because a specific well-order (on $mathbb{N}$ or any other set for that matter), will have some ordinal as an order-type. I think it might be better to say: "how exactly a well-order (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$ can be defined from well-orders (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-types $alpha_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$)"
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:35












          • $begingroup$
            When I wrote: "Because a specific well-order (on N or any other set for that matter)" above, it should have been "any other set that can be well-ordered" (which is true for all sets in ZFC). Hopefully the above comments help in clearing up a few things at least.
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:42
















          1












          1








          1





          $begingroup$

          I didn't fully understand your question, but based on reading the first two paragraphs of your question, I assume that what I write below is what you meant? If it isn't, then let me know so I can delete the answer.



          First of all, when you say "well-order", implicitly or explicitly we are talking about well-order of/on some set. If the context is very clear, this is omitted sometimes for brevity (I will do the same below). I am guessing (given your post) here that you are talking about well-orders on $mathbb{N}$ here.



          As I understood your questions, you are saying that if we are given well-orders relations for well-orders of order-type $alpha_0,alpha_1,alpha_2,...,alpha_i,...$ is there a fixed way to combine them so we can get a well-order relation of order-type $beta=mathrm{sup}{,alpha_i,|,iin mathbb{N}}$.Yes there is, and it is fairly direct and straight-forward. But if this is not what you were asking then do mention it in comments so I can delete the answer.



          Well here it is. Let $lessthan_i:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ denote the well-order relations for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha_i$. From these functions, we define a new function $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ which serves as well-order relation for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$. For the sake of simplicity, I will assume that $beta$ is of the form $omega^x$(for some $x<omega_1$), so simply taking the sum of $alpha_i$'s gives us $beta$.



          As usual, assume that we have pairing encoding function from $mathbb{N}^2$ to $mathbb{N}$ (any valid pairing function whatsoever will do). So $<x,y>$ denotes the result of applying such a function on $x,y in mathbb{N}$. Similarly, we have functions $H:mathbb{N} rightarrow mathbb{N}$ and $V:mathbb{N} rightarrow mathbb{N}$ which extract the first and second element in the pairing respectively. So, for example, we have the identities $H(<x,y>)=x$ and $V(<x,y>)=y$.



          Now we define the function $lessthan(x,y)$ by dividing into sub-cases (note that there are more than one ways to do it correctly):



          (a) $H(x)>H(y)$



          Define $lessthan(x,y)=0$.



          (b) $H(x)<H(y)$



          Define $lessthan(x,y)=1$.



          (c) $H(x)=H(y)$



          This is the more interesting case. Denote $i=H(y)=H(x)$. Just return:
          $lessthan(x,y)=lessthan_i(V(x),V(y))$



          The above cases complete the required description. A careful look will show that this indeed represents a well-order relation for $beta$. (Edit: note that this is also bit of a "shortcut" phrase to avoid being too repetitive. For example, a more formal phrasing for the last sentence before the edit would be:"A careful look will show that this indeed represents a well-order relation for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$")





          I suppose if the construction above is the very first time you have seen it, then it might look a bit complicated. I am adding one very elementary example, so it is easier to get the hang of it.



          Suppose we are given a well-order (of $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha$. Let the corresponding well-order relation be $lessthan_1:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$. We want to construct a function $lessthan_2:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ which can serve as a well-order relation for a well-order (of $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha+omega$.



          Here is one such function. We again divide into sub-cases:



          (a) $x$ and $y$ are both odd



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=lessthan_1((x-1)/2,(y-1)/2)$



          (b) $x$ and $y$ are both even



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=$ return truth value of $x<y$



          (c) $x$ is odd and $y$ is even



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=1$



          (d) $x$ is even and $y$ is odd



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=0$






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          I didn't fully understand your question, but based on reading the first two paragraphs of your question, I assume that what I write below is what you meant? If it isn't, then let me know so I can delete the answer.



          First of all, when you say "well-order", implicitly or explicitly we are talking about well-order of/on some set. If the context is very clear, this is omitted sometimes for brevity (I will do the same below). I am guessing (given your post) here that you are talking about well-orders on $mathbb{N}$ here.



          As I understood your questions, you are saying that if we are given well-orders relations for well-orders of order-type $alpha_0,alpha_1,alpha_2,...,alpha_i,...$ is there a fixed way to combine them so we can get a well-order relation of order-type $beta=mathrm{sup}{,alpha_i,|,iin mathbb{N}}$.Yes there is, and it is fairly direct and straight-forward. But if this is not what you were asking then do mention it in comments so I can delete the answer.



          Well here it is. Let $lessthan_i:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ denote the well-order relations for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha_i$. From these functions, we define a new function $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ which serves as well-order relation for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$. For the sake of simplicity, I will assume that $beta$ is of the form $omega^x$(for some $x<omega_1$), so simply taking the sum of $alpha_i$'s gives us $beta$.



          As usual, assume that we have pairing encoding function from $mathbb{N}^2$ to $mathbb{N}$ (any valid pairing function whatsoever will do). So $<x,y>$ denotes the result of applying such a function on $x,y in mathbb{N}$. Similarly, we have functions $H:mathbb{N} rightarrow mathbb{N}$ and $V:mathbb{N} rightarrow mathbb{N}$ which extract the first and second element in the pairing respectively. So, for example, we have the identities $H(<x,y>)=x$ and $V(<x,y>)=y$.



          Now we define the function $lessthan(x,y)$ by dividing into sub-cases (note that there are more than one ways to do it correctly):



          (a) $H(x)>H(y)$



          Define $lessthan(x,y)=0$.



          (b) $H(x)<H(y)$



          Define $lessthan(x,y)=1$.



          (c) $H(x)=H(y)$



          This is the more interesting case. Denote $i=H(y)=H(x)$. Just return:
          $lessthan(x,y)=lessthan_i(V(x),V(y))$



          The above cases complete the required description. A careful look will show that this indeed represents a well-order relation for $beta$. (Edit: note that this is also bit of a "shortcut" phrase to avoid being too repetitive. For example, a more formal phrasing for the last sentence before the edit would be:"A careful look will show that this indeed represents a well-order relation for a well-order(on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$")





          I suppose if the construction above is the very first time you have seen it, then it might look a bit complicated. I am adding one very elementary example, so it is easier to get the hang of it.



          Suppose we are given a well-order (of $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha$. Let the corresponding well-order relation be $lessthan_1:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$. We want to construct a function $lessthan_2:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$ which can serve as a well-order relation for a well-order (of $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $alpha+omega$.



          Here is one such function. We again divide into sub-cases:



          (a) $x$ and $y$ are both odd



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=lessthan_1((x-1)/2,(y-1)/2)$



          (b) $x$ and $y$ are both even



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=$ return truth value of $x<y$



          (c) $x$ is odd and $y$ is even



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=1$



          (d) $x$ is even and $y$ is odd



          $lessthan_2(x,y)=0$







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Dec 19 '18 at 10:35

























          answered Dec 19 '18 at 7:58









          SSequenceSSequence

          55528




          55528












          • $begingroup$
            What I don't understand is how exactly a function $lessthan$ can be defined from $lessthan_i$, and how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$.
            $endgroup$
            – lyrically wicked
            Dec 19 '18 at 8:38










          • $begingroup$
            @lyricallywicked Well I just described $lessthan$ explicitly in terms of $lessthan_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$). The functions $H$ and $V$ are well-defined (and actually one would normally just choose them so that they are computable or even p.r.). Given two argument $x,y in mathbb{N}$ to the function $lessthan$, you just compare $H(x)$ with $H(y)$ and then calculate the value $lessthan(x,y)$ based on which case the comparison falls into.
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:10












          • $begingroup$
            Also, I am not particularly conversant with the formal terminology here, but essentially a well-order is defined by the combination of: (i) the set which is being well-ordered (ii) the well-order relation. The set that is being well-ordered here is $mathbb{N}$ and the well-order relation (which is $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$) with order-type $beta$ we defined precisely. So these two should be enough to define the required well-order. But admittedly, I don't know how it is written in a fully formal way normally (as I mentioned I am not conversant with formal terminology).
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:19












          • $begingroup$
            For example, when you wrote in comment above "how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$." ...... then, strictly speaking, the phrase "how exactly a well-order $beta$" isn't quite right I think. Because a specific well-order (on $mathbb{N}$ or any other set for that matter), will have some ordinal as an order-type. I think it might be better to say: "how exactly a well-order (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$ can be defined from well-orders (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-types $alpha_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$)"
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:35












          • $begingroup$
            When I wrote: "Because a specific well-order (on N or any other set for that matter)" above, it should have been "any other set that can be well-ordered" (which is true for all sets in ZFC). Hopefully the above comments help in clearing up a few things at least.
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:42




















          • $begingroup$
            What I don't understand is how exactly a function $lessthan$ can be defined from $lessthan_i$, and how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$.
            $endgroup$
            – lyrically wicked
            Dec 19 '18 at 8:38










          • $begingroup$
            @lyricallywicked Well I just described $lessthan$ explicitly in terms of $lessthan_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$). The functions $H$ and $V$ are well-defined (and actually one would normally just choose them so that they are computable or even p.r.). Given two argument $x,y in mathbb{N}$ to the function $lessthan$, you just compare $H(x)$ with $H(y)$ and then calculate the value $lessthan(x,y)$ based on which case the comparison falls into.
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:10












          • $begingroup$
            Also, I am not particularly conversant with the formal terminology here, but essentially a well-order is defined by the combination of: (i) the set which is being well-ordered (ii) the well-order relation. The set that is being well-ordered here is $mathbb{N}$ and the well-order relation (which is $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$) with order-type $beta$ we defined precisely. So these two should be enough to define the required well-order. But admittedly, I don't know how it is written in a fully formal way normally (as I mentioned I am not conversant with formal terminology).
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:19












          • $begingroup$
            For example, when you wrote in comment above "how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$." ...... then, strictly speaking, the phrase "how exactly a well-order $beta$" isn't quite right I think. Because a specific well-order (on $mathbb{N}$ or any other set for that matter), will have some ordinal as an order-type. I think it might be better to say: "how exactly a well-order (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$ can be defined from well-orders (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-types $alpha_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$)"
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:35












          • $begingroup$
            When I wrote: "Because a specific well-order (on N or any other set for that matter)" above, it should have been "any other set that can be well-ordered" (which is true for all sets in ZFC). Hopefully the above comments help in clearing up a few things at least.
            $endgroup$
            – SSequence
            Dec 19 '18 at 9:42


















          $begingroup$
          What I don't understand is how exactly a function $lessthan$ can be defined from $lessthan_i$, and how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$.
          $endgroup$
          – lyrically wicked
          Dec 19 '18 at 8:38




          $begingroup$
          What I don't understand is how exactly a function $lessthan$ can be defined from $lessthan_i$, and how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$.
          $endgroup$
          – lyrically wicked
          Dec 19 '18 at 8:38












          $begingroup$
          @lyricallywicked Well I just described $lessthan$ explicitly in terms of $lessthan_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$). The functions $H$ and $V$ are well-defined (and actually one would normally just choose them so that they are computable or even p.r.). Given two argument $x,y in mathbb{N}$ to the function $lessthan$, you just compare $H(x)$ with $H(y)$ and then calculate the value $lessthan(x,y)$ based on which case the comparison falls into.
          $endgroup$
          – SSequence
          Dec 19 '18 at 9:10






          $begingroup$
          @lyricallywicked Well I just described $lessthan$ explicitly in terms of $lessthan_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$). The functions $H$ and $V$ are well-defined (and actually one would normally just choose them so that they are computable or even p.r.). Given two argument $x,y in mathbb{N}$ to the function $lessthan$, you just compare $H(x)$ with $H(y)$ and then calculate the value $lessthan(x,y)$ based on which case the comparison falls into.
          $endgroup$
          – SSequence
          Dec 19 '18 at 9:10














          $begingroup$
          Also, I am not particularly conversant with the formal terminology here, but essentially a well-order is defined by the combination of: (i) the set which is being well-ordered (ii) the well-order relation. The set that is being well-ordered here is $mathbb{N}$ and the well-order relation (which is $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$) with order-type $beta$ we defined precisely. So these two should be enough to define the required well-order. But admittedly, I don't know how it is written in a fully formal way normally (as I mentioned I am not conversant with formal terminology).
          $endgroup$
          – SSequence
          Dec 19 '18 at 9:19






          $begingroup$
          Also, I am not particularly conversant with the formal terminology here, but essentially a well-order is defined by the combination of: (i) the set which is being well-ordered (ii) the well-order relation. The set that is being well-ordered here is $mathbb{N}$ and the well-order relation (which is $lessthan:mathbb{N}^2 rightarrow {0,1}$) with order-type $beta$ we defined precisely. So these two should be enough to define the required well-order. But admittedly, I don't know how it is written in a fully formal way normally (as I mentioned I am not conversant with formal terminology).
          $endgroup$
          – SSequence
          Dec 19 '18 at 9:19














          $begingroup$
          For example, when you wrote in comment above "how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$." ...... then, strictly speaking, the phrase "how exactly a well-order $beta$" isn't quite right I think. Because a specific well-order (on $mathbb{N}$ or any other set for that matter), will have some ordinal as an order-type. I think it might be better to say: "how exactly a well-order (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$ can be defined from well-orders (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-types $alpha_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$)"
          $endgroup$
          – SSequence
          Dec 19 '18 at 9:35






          $begingroup$
          For example, when you wrote in comment above "how exactly a well-order $beta$ can be defined from $alpha_i$." ...... then, strictly speaking, the phrase "how exactly a well-order $beta$" isn't quite right I think. Because a specific well-order (on $mathbb{N}$ or any other set for that matter), will have some ordinal as an order-type. I think it might be better to say: "how exactly a well-order (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-type $beta$ can be defined from well-orders (on $mathbb{N}$) with order-types $alpha_i$ ($i in mathbb{N}$)"
          $endgroup$
          – SSequence
          Dec 19 '18 at 9:35














          $begingroup$
          When I wrote: "Because a specific well-order (on N or any other set for that matter)" above, it should have been "any other set that can be well-ordered" (which is true for all sets in ZFC). Hopefully the above comments help in clearing up a few things at least.
          $endgroup$
          – SSequence
          Dec 19 '18 at 9:42






          $begingroup$
          When I wrote: "Because a specific well-order (on N or any other set for that matter)" above, it should have been "any other set that can be well-ordered" (which is true for all sets in ZFC). Hopefully the above comments help in clearing up a few things at least.
          $endgroup$
          – SSequence
          Dec 19 '18 at 9:42




















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